RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives?

RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (Full Version)

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Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 8:58:30 AM)
fr It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner. Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime: In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent. Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates: Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent. During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent. Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent. Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women. While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner. Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.

Lucylastic -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 8:59:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Theatres and such DO have smoke alarms and sprinkler systems, it's part of the building code. I know they do, but ... it was part of my point about when something bad happens like a fire, new codes, new safety regs are built in to prevent similarities in crimes, accidents or events happening again elsewhere, until something/someone finds a way to circumvent them. THe difference, there Are changes being made to try to prevent such things from happening In the same manner

Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:04:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I know they do, but ... it was part of my point about when something bad happens like a fire, new codes, new safety regs are built in to prevent similarities in crimes, accidents or events happening again elsewhere, until something/someone finds a way to circumvent them. THe difference, there Are changes being made to try to prevent such things from happening In the same manner Perhaps eugenics is the answer. Designer human beings. [8\|]

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:08:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead So the percentages for crimes involving guns in your country exactly matches the percentages in these pussified nanny states the rest of us live in where there's gun control, then? And are you going to tell me it was English gun laws that put an end to IRA violence?l america is the UKA and you can look at shit loads of scotus decisions that even to this day reference english law and reflect the changes based on the changes made in england, just tweaked to the plutocracy rather than the monarchy.

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:11:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin FR If the nutcase would have blocked the exits and started a fire he could have killed damn near everyone in the theater. If some one is bent on mass murder there are numerous ways to carry it out that are a whole lot more efficient than a bunch of guns. Gun control won't stop idiots from commiting mass murder. Even if they are outlawed or ban whatever idiots and thugs will still get their hands on them. As you pointed out, mass murder wasn't the ultimate point--better and easier ways to do. Having a shootout was the point. And for that, you need guns. wrong you cant have a shoot-"out" with no one shooting back. mass murder was the point.

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:22:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin I stated my point clear enough. You guys talk in riddles. All the gun control you guys can come up with wont stop these kinds of crimes. All the law we have doesn't stop any crime -- but it certainly reduces them. You think your attitudes are worth some slaughtered people. I don't. Nor is it "Take the guns!" like you guys chant. Banning auto/semi-automatic weapons would be a great start. so no law will stop crime but banning which IS TAKING is a good start. you are suffering from a bad case of clinical double-think.

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:25:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Perhaps eugenics is the answer. Designer human beings. [8\|] look at your city ordinances, you would be shocked at how many so-called laws are nothing more than fucking cosmetics because a group of asswipes sit around the round table and decide thats the "way it should be". Flashback to pre-revolutionary england in 2012

Lucylastic -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:33:04 AM)
see below

Lucylastic -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:36:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie fr It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner. Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime: In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent. Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates: Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent. During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent. Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent. Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women. While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner. Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009. LOL an conservative think tank and THEN????... DC examiner why cant you use real .... Statistics Like the ones used in this little pdf you can find here http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/990A014955F3818DCA2577360017E331/$File/45100_2009.pdf Page 15 or just this handy dandy little graph I took for you from the actual data used Seems to be a few inconsistencies regarding the figures.. As for the " assault" numbers and fire arms deaths, I will post them for you if you are too stubborn to look for yourself damn thing...try again [image]local://upfiles/228382/3C6E825BECB4490EA275010B2B448448.jpg[/image]

Lucylastic -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 9:53:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I know they do, but ... it was part of my point about when something bad happens like a fire, new codes, new safety regs are built in to prevent similarities in crimes, accidents or events happening again elsewhere, until something/someone finds a way to circumvent them. THe difference, there Are changes being made to try to prevent such things from happening In the same manner Perhaps eugenics is the answer. Designer human beings. [8\|] yeah I will treat that comment with the contempt it deserves too

lovmuffin -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 10:36:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic I know they do, but ... it was part of my point about when something bad happens like a fire, new codes, new safety regs are built in to prevent similarities in crimes, accidents or events happening again elsewhere, until something/someone finds a way to circumvent them. THe difference, there Are changes being made to try to prevent such things from happening In the same manner Perhaps eugenics is the answer. Designer human beings. [8\|] yeah I will treat that comment with the contempt it deserves too It's about as good of an idea as gun control.

Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 3:35:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin I stated my point clear enough. You guys talk in riddles. All the gun control you guys can come up with wont stop these kinds of crimes. All the law we have doesn't stop any crime -- but it certainly reduces them. You think your attitudes are worth some slaughtered people. I don't. Nor is it "Take the guns!" like you guys chant. Banning auto/semi-automatic weapons would be a great start. That's good, banning an entire class of firearms will reduce crime ?? A great start? What comes after that? Do you even know what you're talking about ? It's statements like that that make us chant "take the guns". And in case you didn't know automatic weapons are severely restricted which doesn't seem to stop the bad guys who want them from getting their hands on them. Yes, I do. During the ban, less violent incidents. After the ban, more violent incidents. See how that works? The silly perfectionist fallacy is a mainstay for you guys, as is slippery slope. We have speed limits. Oh no!!! How long before we aren't allowed drive faster than 10 mph? We have fines for speeding--how long before they're $10,000 a ticket!!!! We have laws against rape, but people still get raped--let's legalize rape, so it's not just criminals who get to rape! Dumb "arguments" like that are why I don't take you seriously. My positions actually changed quite a bit as a result of very convincing arguments Kirata made a while back. But he used actually sound logic, not crap like this.

Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 3:36:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic yet the colorado guy got his "legally", wasnt a criminal, in the eyes of the law, until thursday night. Ooops too late. MUCH too bloody late. And he could have legally obtained the materials needed to block the theater exits not to mention some gas and a Bic lighter. So what......Oops, it would have been too bloody late for that too. But he didn't. The point wasn't to kill everyone--he could have got poison gas for that too. The point was to have a shoot out. With guns. Semi-automatic weapons. THAT could have been prevented.

Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 3:37:42 PM)
And rape laws won't stop rapists, so let's lift that ban too. I'm pretty sure rapes won't increase once they're legal--aren't you?

Rule -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 4:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The point was to have a shoot out. With guns. Semi-automatic weapons. THAT could have been prevented. And why would someone want to prevent that? How? At what cost? The best thing to do is to ignore the whole matter. No great harm was done; with respect to the six or seven billion other human beings this event was of no significance whatsoever. The Indian Ocean tsunami a couple of years ago with one hundred thousand plus dead people was of no significance whatsoever. Yet there is a great harm that can be prevented: all them millions of mice and birds that every year are killed by house cats, often dying a cruel death. We could easily prevent that by de-clawing and de-fanging every cat. It will not have my support, though: I am opposed to such cruelty against cats. Cinema's ought to have weapons policies: every visitor should bring at least two pistols and one shotgun.

Rule -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 4:06:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And rape laws won't stop rapists, so let's lift that ban too. The purpose of rape laws is to reduce the reproductive success of the rapist, so that there will be less people born without a conscience in succeeding generations. quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I'm pretty sure rapes won't increase once they're legal--aren't you? Only people without a conscience require such deterrence.

lovmuffin -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 4:25:06 PM)
Talk about dumb arguments Music, "legalize rape", "10 MPH speed limits", "$10,000 speeding tickets" sound pretty dumb to me. Not a really good comparison. My legitimate question still stands. After you ban an entire class of firearms which you say is a great start, what next after that ? And you might try using a bit of logic yourself.

Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 5:36:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin Talk about dumb arguments Music, "legalize rape", "10 MPH speed limits", "$10,000 speeding tickets" sound pretty dumb to me. Not a really good comparison. My legitimate question still stands. After you ban an entire class of firearms which you say is a great start, what next after that ? And you might try using a bit of logic yourself. Nice try, but they're excellent comparisons because they exactly point out they are dumb. Yet somehow, when we put "guns" in the same logic, suddenly it's smart. You have thinking to do.

lovmuffin -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 6:22:26 PM)
What logic are you referring to ? Criminals can circumvent a stupid gun ban ? Why dont you stop talking in riddles and spell it out. I was just asking a simple question. You say we should ban Semi autos. That would encompass an entire class of firearms. You say it would be a great start as if that's going to begin to solve anything. The question again is what are you suggesting comes next after your semi auto ban ? And what crap are you talking about "Before the ban more violent incidents, after the ban less violent incidents". "See how what works?" What are you talking about ? What ban ? Reread what you've been posting, you have some of your own thinking to do.

slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/22/2012 6:23:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin Its a stupid anallogy. Has nothing to do with what I posted. Of course it does. It's parallel to the argument you used, demonstrating the flaw in your logic. See,that's what I thought.....lol Is it possible,that a day later,he still doesn't see it ?

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