RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives?

RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 6:56:38 AM)
He's another pawn of the biggest corporate promoter in modern times--the NRA. They say "Look out!" and their puppets buy more guns.

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:03:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead You do know that's just asking for a GIF of some obscure gilded age court judgement with a few bits that are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand picked out in highlighter pen? thats called Stare Decis

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:08:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery peo·ple [pee-puhl] --a GROUP noun 1. persons indefinitely or collectively; persons in general: to find it easy to talk to people; What will people think? 2. persons, whether men, women, or children, considered as numerable individuals forming a group: Twenty people volunteered to help. 3. human beings, as distinguished from animals or other beings. 4. the entire body of persons who constitute a community, tribe, nation, or other group by virtue of a common culture, history, religion, or the like: the people of Australia; the Jewish people. 5. the persons of any particular group, company, or number (sometimes used in combination): the people of a parish; educated people; salespeople. but King George; People or the community are composed of (mostly) legal entities known as "persons". It is a group made up of "men", "women" and legal persons. Each with rights. The word people does not create a corporation. It is complete loony tunes to come out here with precisely one of the issues the revolutionary war was fought over try to claim that the guarantee to respect the rights of people does not include persons that make up that group. So supposedly the "people" created a constitution that only respects collective rights, not personal or worse not "primary", "Inherent" rights? You really dont believe "people" are that fucking ignorant out here do you?

Thaz -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:10:06 AM)
Are we debating what a Countrys Laws currently say or are we debating what is right? As someone from a country with no Consititution (just a juggernaught of tradition and respect for freedoms) I'm not overly dogmatic on not changing the law if its wrong. I just dont trust a lot of politicians to change it in a non-insane manner.

mnottertail -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:11:14 AM)
Apparently they are. Q.E.D.

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:15:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thaz Are we debating what a Countrys Laws currently say or are we debating what is right? As someone from a country with no Consititution (just a juggernaught of tradition and respect for freedoms) I'm not overly dogmatic on not changing the law if its wrong. I just dont trust a lot of politicians to change it in a non-insane manner. well a prime example are the politicians on this board trying to promote even greater slave/police state than we have now. it is well accepted where the bear shits in the buckwheat in my state. [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/blacks/wisconsincreationofconstitutionpoliticiansbenefit1.jpg[/image] constitutions are made for commerce and have not a damn thing to do with inherent or primary rights EXCEPT that we know they will be violated in the name of business and in this case totalitarian police power as the King would have it. Oh and BTW those so called "FREE INHABITANTS" were against the constitution and NEVER VOTED FOR IT because the delegates voted instead and as we can see it is well known just who the fuck those delegates were!!! No statewide referendum ever existed Same with the original 13, only one colony actually had the "people" vote. and since I am having so much fun here, 60,000 was the number required for "Kings Service" LOL In other words when the King took over a country by "conquest" then for the establishment of HIS Domain, when the number feeoffments that could be issued reached 60,000 the king would divy up the land to his nobles and shire riefs to insure TAXES would be collected. There is no "significant" difference in land law in america under the state than there was in england under the king. No feudalism and land law are not one in the same within that ocntext however they are linked at the hip. Hail the king!

Thaz -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:30:56 AM)
Of course you are arguing from a bad position as far as I'm concerned. I'm a loyal subject of the crown and I would argue that you'd be better off with a Crowned Figurehead as head of state than an elected President. King George was a pretty decent guy all in all despite the spin during the War of Independance and I'd take him over that traitor Washington anyday :-) Thats a bit of devils advocate position, however generally speaking I'll take Liz II over any President you've had in my life time. Good luck for you that we were too busy with the French to do more than burn out the Whitehouse.... ;-) Thaz

Real0ne -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 7:39:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thaz Of course you are arguing from a bad position as far as I'm concerned. I'm a loyal subject of the crown and I would argue that you'd be better off with a Crowned Figurehead as head of state than an elected President. King George was a pretty decent guy all in all despite the spin during the War of Independance and I'd take him over that traitor Washington anyday :-) Thats a bit of devils advocate position, however generally speaking I'll take Liz II over any President you've had in my life time. Good luck for you that we were too busy with the French to do more than burn out the Whitehouse.... ;-) Thaz I would counter-argue that "figurehead" is not a technical legal or equitable term and if you wish to do an exhaustive examination of the duties and obligations of the King they are almost identical with that of the president in this country. How about I more appropriately say "Hail the Crown" :) Oh what would happen if the people got educated and abolished that and all other ancient aristocratic TRUSTS, set up to trump and undermine the rights of the people? Would the world be a better place for it? more; they already burned the whitehouse. It was common practice to burn the depositories of deeds to pull the bart simpson. "Didnt see me cant prove a thing." Then re-title under the new realm and claim jurisdiction. Oh and btw, your point about Liz is well taken, our canadian friends are making far more headway in the courts under the crown than we in america are. (even though the crown has no truly legitimate authority over the indians in the first place)

Thaz -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 8:46:41 AM)
Hmmm? See if they did that what would it be replaced with? The problem is that the electorate is neither entirely educated, smart or unselfish. As a result those verminous politicians get involved. Some politicians are still there to do good as they see it. Far more are corrupted along the way or were always in it for the benefit of themselves or their peers. And so attempts to turn the UK House of Lords into a second elected chamber are not my favored solution any more than an elected head of state would be. I would far rather than a random selection of the populace was selected for a fixed term with no chance of multiple terms to the second house. Some filtering for lack of serious criminal background and literacy/numeracy preferable and a requirement to swear an oath of loyalty. If they really like it and show talent they can always run as MP after their term is up. Keep the Law Lords but select from those licensed and actively practising law and expand the Lords Spirtual to include a similar selection of priests of differing faiths and expand the Lords of the Admiralty to have various people who have served their nation (having informed ex-rank and file soldiers, sailors and airmen in the house may reduce the number of wars commited to)...make sure these groups are still a minority compared to the normal pool. The second house to act as conscience and break on the excesses of elected politicians aka vermin.

jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 8:55:52 AM)
I am a democrat who owns guns and is a member of the NRA. I have yet to hear anything come out of an NRA spokesman that makes me want to go out and buy more guns. However, my collection includes some antique firearms, some black powder replicas, and some modern weapons that some misguided individuals refer to assault weapons. They are semi automatic versions of military firearms. I also have started the process to allow me to legally own automatics. I will be honest, I am planning to start a terrorist organization dedicated to the reestablishment of the super continent Pangaea. I have not figured out how to move all the continental plates back into the proper positions to recreate the continent, but that is a minor problem.

Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 9:44:56 AM)
fr SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store. Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people." Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms." Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him." By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."

Politesub53 -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 10:23:03 AM)
More guns in a darkened cinema wouldnt have stopped the carnage. According to reports, many that were shot were hit by bullets coming through the walls, think of the panic if people had started shooting back blindly.

jlf1961 -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 10:24:00 AM)
I am licensed to carry a concealed fire arm, have an anti social personality, AND have tendency to suffer from road rage.... Does that make me a threat to the public?

VideoAdminTheta -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 10:24:58 AM)
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hardcybermaster -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 10:33:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie fr SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store. Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people." Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms." Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him." By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492 At least 12 people have been killed and 59 wounded in a shooting at a midnight cinema showing of the new Batman film near Denver, Colorado just to remind you

SilverMark -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 11:14:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I am a democrat who owns guns and is a member of the NRA. I have yet to hear anything come out of an NRA spokesman that makes me want to go out and buy more guns. However, my collection includes some antique firearms, some black powder replicas, and some modern weapons that some misguided individuals refer to assault weapons. They are semi automatic versions of military firearms. I also have started the process to allow me to legally own automatics. I will be honest, I am planning to start a terrorist organization dedicated to the reestablishment of the super continent Pangaea. I have not figured out how to move all the continental plates back into the proper positions to recreate the continent, but that is a minor problem. Of course it does Jeff!....You psycho![:D]

Hillwilliam -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 11:25:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie fr SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store. Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people." Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms." Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him." By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492 At least 12 people have been killed and 59 wounded in a shooting at a midnight cinema showing of the new Batman film near Denver, Colorado just to remind you There was apparently noone carrying in the theater because there were signs prohibiting firearms and those who have carry permits tend to be law abiding and respect the property and wishes of property owners.

Politesub53 -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 11:32:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam There was apparently noone carrying in the theater because there were signs prohibiting firearms and those who have carry permits tend to be law abiding and respect the property and wishes of property owners. Which negates the OP that gun laws wouldnt have prevented this tradegy from happening.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 11:47:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam There was apparently noone carrying in the theater because there were signs prohibiting firearms and those who have carry permits tend to be law abiding and respect the property and wishes of property owners. Which negates the OP that gun laws wouldnt have prevented this tradegy from happening. Absolutely correct. Somewhere in these threads on the tragedy, I mentioned that property owners have the right to exclude things they don't wish to have on their property. The theater was apparently clearly marked as a place where weapons are unwelcome. Property rights come before the privelege of carrying and this is one area where I feel the NRA is trying to go too far. There really is no way to defend yourself from an intelligent (yeah, I know his professors called him a dolt but he has a degree in neurobiology FFS) lone wolf psychopath.

OsideGirl -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/27/2012 11:52:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie fr SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store. Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people." Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms." Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him." By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492 At least 12 people have been killed and 59 wounded in a shooting at a midnight cinema showing of the new Batman film near Denver, Colorado just to remind you Yup and a few years ago, a guy killed 10 people and injured 63 more by driving his Buick through a Farmer's Market.

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