Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 8:01:24 AM)

"One definition of madness is to repeat the same thing over and over and expect a different result. If that’s true, then our inability to regulate guns in this country is barking mad crazy. Every time someone gets shot–Trayvon Martin in Florida, Gabby Giffords in Arizona, the High Schoolers in Columbine, and now movie goers in Aurora–there is understandable outrage and…nothing. Nothing really changes and the statistics are clear: Tens of thousands of Americans die every year from gunshot wounds. And guns are at the heart of the problem. According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

•An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).
•Higher household gun ownership correlates with higher rates of homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings (Harvard Injury Control Center).
•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, 1992, p. 467; Wiebe, p. 771).
•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).




We’re from the NRA and we’re here to make you safe. Fear is what fuels the NRA. Fear that big government will somehow abrogate your second amendment rights; fear that the Muslims are coming to institute Sharia law; and fear of the other, like those who are simply different from you. The NRA preys on that fear, and uses it to ensure that gun regulations aren’t put in place. But they hide behind a smokescreen of…safety. The NRA’s argument is that guns make us safer. NRA head, Wayne LaPierre has said as much:


“I wouldn’t stand before you today if I didn’t believe, and I couldn’t prove, that our common-sense policies can have a more immediate impact on violence, and make more citizens safer, than anything that anyone else is proposing.”









http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/07/22/why-is-the-equivalent-of-a-911-every-six-weeks-something-that-americans-can-live-with/



thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 1:15:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"One definition of madness is to repeat the same thing over and over and expect a different result. If that’s true, then our inability to regulate guns in this country is barking mad crazy. Every time someone gets shot–Trayvon Martin in Florida, Gabby Giffords in Arizona, the High Schoolers in Columbine, and now movie goers in Aurora–there is understandable outrage and…nothing. Nothing really changes and the statistics are clear: Tens of thousands of Americans die every year from gunshot wounds. And guns are at the heart of the problem. According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.



The conclusion that folows your premis is wrong. Consider gun ownership in cuba and switzerland is greater than the u.s. and their homicides are not similar so you have tried to create a false equivilancy.
Now to "brady"wasn't he the mouth piece for a republicrat?

quote:

•An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).


There are easier and less messy ways to suicide(check with your local hemlock society) and it is none of anyones bussiness if someone decides they are done with what they have.
The homicide one is funny it reads clearly that in 59% of gun homicides the victim would still be dead of a gushot with no guns present[;)]


quote:

•Higher household gun ownership correlates with higher rates of homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings (Harvard Injury Control Center).


Are they comparing u.s. residents to u.s. residents or are they comparing u.s. residents to other countries with high gun ownership?

quote:

•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, 1992, p. 467; Wiebe, p. 771).


What is wrong with suicide??? "They soot horses don't they?"[;)]

quote:

•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).


Retroactive birth control.




quote:

We’re from the NRA and we’re here to make you safe. Fear is what fuels the NRA. Fear that big government will somehow abrogate your second amendment rights; fear that the Muslims are coming to institute Sharia law; and fear of the other, like those who are simply different from you. The NRA preys on that fear, and uses it to ensure that gun regulations aren’t put in place. But they hide behind a smokescreen of…safety. The NRA’s argument is that guns make us safer. NRA head, Wayne LaPierre has said as much:


There are those who would disagree with you. They would point out that the left is just as vociferous as the right at trying to get everyone to believe that they have something to fear.





Real0ne -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 1:21:47 PM)

quote:

there is understandable outrage and…nothing. Nothing really changes



yeh thats because the rest of us have rights.


is that ok with you?





LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 1:24:57 PM)

"Equivalent of a 9/11 every six weeks"? Hyperbole has reached new heights.



Real0ne -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 1:25:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).


Retroactive birth control.



Looks to me like he is trying to claim its the guns fault. LOL

not the loony who pulled the trigger.

O59 move out to the country where people understand these matters and get away from the over medicated losers in the city



angelikaJ -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 1:50:20 PM)

This may seem off topic, but it's not.

In the US, 48 million cases of food borne illnesses occur each year.
128,000 people are hospitalised and 3,000 people die.
http://www.foodborneillness.com/

And largely this happens because We, The People, allow it.

We have never sent mass communications to TPTB and demanded E Coli 0157:H7, Salmonella and Listeria be kept out of our food supply and so our current laws and regulations allow it, with our full permission.

In essence, by the choices that we make, the people we elect and the degree of personal involvement we decide to participate in, we do make the laws.

If we want things to be different, we need to complain less and participate more.

The same goes for our levels of gun control.
There is no reason why some guns need to be on the streets...and plenty of reason as to why they should not be.

There is no reason for crazy people to have access to them, and yet, too often they do.

It is not unreasonable for laws to be enforced, loopholes to be closed and semi-automatic weapons to be off limits except for law enforcement use.

But as long as the majority continues to sleepwalk through our collective responsibilities nothing is going to change.

If nothing changes, NOTHING changes.

We need to stop living by default.


Edit: add link



atursvcMaam -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 1:59:53 PM)

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
I am guessing a bit here, but i get quite confused with the pro choice/ anti gun crowd. This looks like more lost here than to gun violence or 9/11. Do you prefer victims that can't or won't shoot back?



GotSteel -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:01:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
It is not unreasonable for laws to be enforced, loopholes to be closed and semi-automatic weapons to be off limits except for law enforcement use.


Is semi-automatic really what you mean here?



lovmuffin -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:04:19 PM)

There we go again. The answer is to make an entire class of firearms off limits.



cloudboy -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:07:01 PM)

According to an economics book I am reading, small, well-funded, highly organized industries lobby the US Congress the most effectively. This is why so many counter-intuitive public polices exist.

In the USA, the NRA, combined with passionate gun owners and colorable Second Amendment protections exercise much more influence over gun policies than the general population. Only when the general population becomes more passionate will the balance change, but there aren't enough gun deaths in the US to trigger this.

The Columbine and Aurora shootings are not equivalent to 9/11 because each event comes across as localized and perpetrated by nutcases. 9-11, conversely, was viewed as a national attack perpetrated by a well organized terrorist group with a history of violence and continuing terrorist plans.



thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:11:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Do you prefer victims that can't or won't shoot back?


That is why they are called victims.



KittyCali -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:13:38 PM)

the people that mow down crowds with hi powered weaponry used to be the ax murderers back in the day .... it slowed them down ....



thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:14:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
It is not unreasonable for laws to be enforced, loopholes to be closed and semi-automatic weapons to be off limits except for law enforcement use.


Is semi-automatic really what you mean here?


Would a trap door springfield qualilfy as semi-auto?



dcnovice -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:19:54 PM)

quote:

According to an economics book I am reading, small, well-funded, highly organized industries lobby the US Congress the most effectively. This is why so many counter-intuitive public polices exist.


Sounds like an interesting book; thanks for the heads-up!

Some years ago, a friend was the research assistant for a book called The Best Congress Money Can Buy. Incredibly eye-opening!



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:23:52 PM)

Since most americans dont have guns, and have no interest in them, they don't feel like they have a dog in the fight.



angelikaJ -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:33:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
I am guessing a bit here, but i get quite confused with the pro choice/ anti gun crowd. This looks like more lost here than to gun violence or 9/11. Do you prefer victims that can't or won't shoot back?


Not at all, I grew up with guns and shot my first firearm (with guidance from dad) before I was 7.
At one time I had a firearm in the place I was living for personal protection.

However, many people who own them for protection have never actually taken a gun safety course.
Too many people are killed in their own homes by their own guns.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/michael-bayless-fatally-shot-by-3-year-old-son_n_1675803.html

By the time I would have been old enough to find a gun in the house (in other words, they were very well secured), my dad had taught me to treat every gun as loaded.

I choose not to own a gun now, but when I did, I was a responsible gun owner.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:41:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

"Equivalent of a 9/11 every six weeks"? Hyperbole has reached new heights.


Indeed.



KYsissy -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 2:45:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KittyCali

the people that mow down crowds with hi powered weaponry used to be the ax murderers back in the day .... it slowed them down ....


The latest wingnut was very intelligent and had extensive booby traps in his apartment. If he didn't have access to guns it is very possible that he would have still carried out his plan using bombs. When you have a determined intelligent wingnut, they will find a way. If an individual is willing to die in the process, there is almost nothing anyone can do to stop them.

The gun culture is not the problem. Thug culture is the problem. When it becomes acceptable, even revered, to settle small altercations with gunfire, senseless killings ensue.

The people I know have enough weapons to equip a platoon. Most have concealed carry permits. Most very rarely ever carry. Most are ex military. Some have avoided becoming a victim of street crime because they had a weapon. ALL are upstanding men and women who would make great neighbors.



Just0Plain0Mike -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 4:20:16 PM)

I had two incidents like this. Where I was the target of a mugging or car-jacking, and defused the situation just by exposing the grip of my pistol. So even though I'm one of the psycho gun-owners the OP seems to be harping on, I used my weapon to resolve a potentially dangerous situation without anyone being injured.



cloudboy -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/22/2012 5:02:37 PM)


Its a general economics book, offering an economic perspective on various issues. One concept it put forward that I never knew about was about two kinds of regulatory systems, one known as "the giving hand" and other as "the taking hand."

In giving hand regulatory structures, the regulators are motivated by public policy and rule of law. The book points out one of the things foreigners most envy about the USA is its rule of law and regulatory structure. Business cannot thrive without strong legal enforcement of laws and regulations, and good governance promotes investment and public confidence in the private sector.

In taking hand regulatory structures, regulators are corrupt and want to enrich themselves by seeking bribes from the regulated. Such practices are common in places like Nigeria and Russia, and the poor enforcement of regulations and the public knowledge of widespread corruption contribute to the underdevelopment of each nation.



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