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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 3:14:23 PM

GreedyTop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

So where's the ban on the rest of the "wrongdoers?"

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I'm so screwed.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 3:15:32 PM

kalikshama

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/snort/

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 4:01:09 PM

stellauk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJohnSteed]

quote:

Sorry but quoting from the previous Old Testament doesn't wash. It's not faith, it's not religion, it's bigotry and it's homophobia.

And no matter how many times you repeat it it will never become a fact and will be nothing more than your own personal belief.

Again SO you say, I've debated this subject before. namely that the anti-homosexuality in the bible is all part of the old testament, Nope Sorry its in the new testament as well (I Corinthians 6:9; 10)

Your argument is just like the whole argument of the da vinci code, people wanted to make Jesus Human so that if He is human then Fallible and there for not worthy of worship.

People want to make Homosexuality OK because then they don't have to leave their sinful natures. For All Have Sinned and come Short of the glory of God. But God offers us forgiveness and redemption. But not as long as we continue to sin.

You want to know really why people want to make homosexuality okay? Because it's part and parcel of biology and Nature, that's why.

Now if you go back to those parts of the Holy Bible you seem so fond of quoting and read them properly you will find that the man who chooses to lie down with another man as if he is a woman is committing a sin. This is perfectly logical.

Why is he sinning? Because he is making a choice and not living true to his nature. The homosexual IS living true to his nature and is not making any choice. And if you think he is, then please explain to me when you chose to be heterosexual.

Okay, so now we come to Jesus. Now do you understand why Jesus came to be the Messiah and the central figure in Christianity?

The core of morality is actually evil. Evil is polar in nature - it can be positive or negative, and it can be directed either internally towards oneself or externally towards someone else. Examples of positive evil, (towards oneself) include apathy, sloth, greed, self-deception, (towards others) include anger, hatred, deception, enmity, delusions of divinity and cruelty.

That what we perceive as good is negative evil - examples (towards oneself) include learning, increasing one's awareness, interest in technology, working on one's self-development and towards others we have love, friendship, kindness, creativity, tolerance, acceptance.

Evil already exists in this world, and negating evil requires effort, therefore to do good requires effort, and it requires constant effort.. You want to learn something, you must put in some effort, to love someone requires effort, to reach out to someone with kindness requires effort.

Christ, so the story goes, went against organized religion at the time (the Jews) because he understood that salvation comes from individuality in all spiritual and moral thinking, that one's own life experiences are individual and that one needs to make one's own individual spiritual and moral decisions. That is why he went round hanging out with prostitutes, homosexuals, money lenders, and that is why he went around teaching with his disciples. For this he was crucified.

That is the basis of his teachings and of the Gospel and if you take a look at any major religion you will see that it is structured in a similar way.

Now I get that you find homosexuality unacceptable, immoral and sinful and you know what? I'm cool with that. Nobody says that you have to accept or embrace homosexuality as part of your lifestyle.

But you know what? Also you are not walking anybody else's path through life other than your own and no matter how much you argue it or debate it you also don't get to decide their morality or spirituality either.

This isn't about forcing you (or anyone else) to embrace homosexuality as an acceptable part of your lifestyle. This is about accepting someone who is as a fellow human being, and .. being human, someone who is equal to you.

'Do you love God? Then you must first learn to love your fellow man.'
(The Prophet Mohammed)

< Message edited by stellauk -- 7/25/2012 4:02:19 PM >

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 4:12:44 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

The Bible, The Torah and the Koran all three forbid the practice of Homosexuality. Which is why I scratch my heads at some gay people I know going to Church. God in all three of the major religions forbids homosexuality.

If you want to order your life according to the prejudices of patriarchal, pre-scientific, and often bloodthirsty tribes, have at it. But please let the rest of us live in peace.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 4:22:38 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

So where's the ban on the rest of the "wrongdoers?"

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I'm so screwed.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 4:28:08 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJohnSteed

People want to make Homosexuality OK because then they don't have to leave their sinful natures. For All Have Sinned and come Short of the glory of God. But God offers us forgiveness and redemption. But not as long as we continue to sin.

God didn't seem to like fat, rich, greedy fuckers who liked torturing and murdering people either, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for most of the keenest American Bible-bashers these days. Just saying.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 5:50:02 PM

CRYPTICLXVI

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJohnSteed

Again SO you say, I've debated this subject before. namely that the anti-homosexuality in the bible is all part of the old testament, Nope Sorry its in the new testament as well (I Corinthians 6:9; 10)

Your argument is just like the whole argument of the da vinci code, people wanted to make Jesus Human so that if He is human then Fallible and there for not worthy of worship.

People want to make Homosexuality OK because then they don't have to leave their sinful natures. For All Have Sinned and come Short of the glory of God. But God offers us forgiveness and redemption. But not as long as we continue to sin.

New Testament, decided upon during the fourth century CE, and completely different if you are Catholic or Protestant... hell, even the coolest horrorshow in the Bible, Book of the Revelation of Saint John the Divine was a last minute addition, beating out at least one other Apocalypse book. The Gospels, the primary Canon of the New Testament were written over decades by anonymous writers, some having been read by others, primarily written to deal with specific cultural and political issues that the Jewish people were dealing with in relationship to the Romans.

Hell, most of the "Early Church" instead of being united in thought, doctrine and dogma were widely scattered and eclectic in belief, they could not even decide for a long time if "Gentiles" could be converted to Christianity.

Then you quote Paul as a reason to continue hating homosexuality??? As if he was the voice of Jesus... he was an extreme, radical late convert to Christianity who in fact wrote as many letters as he did, because "his" churches kept refusing to follow his way. Prolific motherfucker, but I sincerely doubt he spoke for Jesus, who had died decades before he converted. If you want a closer idea of Jesus' words, you would do better to look at the Gospel of Thomas which at least is just a collection of quotations as opposed to having any agenda.

Shaking my head... do you have any concept of the New Testament at all??? This is just what I vaguely remember, without actually going back to go through sources on my bookshelf, and I have forgotten even more than I recall from the last twenty-plus years.

...and just for shits and giggles.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:06:16 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CRYPTICLXVI

New Testament, decided upon during the fourth century CE, and completely different if you are Catholic or Protestant... hell, even the coolest horrorshow in the Bible, Book of the Revelation of Saint John the Divine was a last minute addition, beating out at least one other Apocalypse book. The Gospels, the primary Canon of the New Testament were written over decades by anonymous writers, some having been read by others, primarily written to deal with specific cultural and political issues that the Jewish people were dealing with in relationship to the Romans.

Hell, most of the "Early Church" instead of being united in thought, doctrine and dogma were widely scattered and eclectic in belief, they could not even decide for a long time if "Gentiles" could be converted to Christianity.

Then you quote Paul as a reason to continue hating homosexuality??? As if he was the voice of Jesus... he was an extreme, radical late convert to Christianity who in fact wrote as many letters as he did, because "his" churches kept refusing to follow his way. Prolific motherfucker, but I sincerely doubt he spoke for Jesus, who had died decades before he converted. If you want a closer idea of Jesus' words, you would do better to look at the Gospel of Thomas which at least is just a collection of quotations as opposed to having any agenda.

Shaking my head... do you have any concept of the New Testament at all??? This is just what I vaguely remember, without actually going back to go through sources on my bookshelf, and I have forgotten even more than I recall from the last twenty-plus years.

Seriously, is any of this relevant? I think we all know, deep down, that it doesn't matter what is and is not actually written in the Bible. Religion, for most of the Christian history of it, anyway, hasn't been a democratic enterprise. It's been an authoritarian one. You are given the rules from on high, the greatest virtue is in accepting, and that is that. Whatever the 'authorities' say is important in the Bible (whoever those authorities are deemed to be) and what is to be ignored, is what counts. The religious right doesn't even buy the notion that you and I have any real right to do any 'interpreting' of the Bible. It's not 'our place' to do so. Because we've lost any sense of knowing our place, we're not worth arguing with.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:10:20 PM

CRYPTICLXVI

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:12:50 PM

TNDommeK

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This^^^

As a Christian, I apologize to homosexual people for how the churches have treated them.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:14:18 PM

CRYPTICLXVI

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

This^^^

As a Christian, I apologize to homosexual people for how the churches have treated them.

I don't have any hatred or dislike of "Christians", both my mother and sister are Christian... I have an issue with those who use it to justify their own hatreds with no understanding where their beliefs come from...

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:17:36 PM

pyschosubmission

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CRYPTICLXVI

I have an issue with those who use it to justify their own hatreds with no understanding where their beliefs come from

That's exactly how I feel regardless of the label the prejudiced fool cares to place in front of themselves

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:27:41 PM

TNDommeK

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My thoughts are to just live and treat people how you want to be treated. Be cool and love earth and stuff. That's what my religion is to me. I really hate that hypocrites in the church have made certain religions and people hated because of their actions.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:29:11 PM

LadyPact

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I am so surprised that we aren't in P&R yet.

I happen to be a person of faith, too. I'm sure some would say that I was cherry picking as well. (I'm a sadistic poly female Dominant for crying out loud. Who could possibly be more in trouble than Me?) I just do it in the opposite way because I happen to think some kind of mistake had to have been made. The people who actually got the stuff down on paper, or the translation after so many times, or maybe something else got the thing screwed up. The people of that era couldn't possibly understand the things we know today. I find it really hard to believe that God, who has knowledge of all things, would have put that one line in there knowing He made people the way that they are.

I don't think that made sense to anyone but Me, but I felt like saying it anyway.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:33:55 PM

LadyHibiscus

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It made perfect sense to Me, LP, and I am an overeducated Catholic atheist.

(The Church will consider me one of them, unless I'm excommunicated. )

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 7:38:53 PM

pyschosubmission

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quote:

(The Church will consider me one of them, unless I'm excommunicated. )

O.o
You can check out at any time, but you can never leave...

:P

Also as a side note, gay marriage is now being legalised in Scotland. :D

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 8:04:06 PM

FrostedFlake

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quote:

People want to make Homosexuality OK because then they don't have to leave their sinful natures. For All Have Sinned and come Short of the glory of God. But God offers us forgiveness and redemption. But not as long as we continue to sin.

Your argument presupposes the existence of God, and the even wilder proposition that you or anyone knows one goddamned thing about God. Why would you believe such an outrageous thing? Someone told you? Who told that guy? And where did that guy come up with the straight poop? Sorry about the pun. Is this where you suppose things started?

quote:

Exodus 20 God handing Moses the ten commandments

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they removed and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, “Speak thou with us and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”
20 And Moses said unto the people, “Fear not; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.”
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the Lord said unto Moses, “Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: ‘Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

For what reason does God need a mouthpiece? Can God not speak to anyone, anywhere, anywhen about anything? Was it not Moses that wrote Exodus? Did he not through the words quoted here arrogate unto himself the authority of the entire universe? Am I supposed to swallow just because someone who says he speaks for God shoves a spoon in my mouth? What about this is believable? What is it about the Bible that makes it believable? Asked at the most basic level, what prevents God delivering the editorial on the five o'clock news? Daily.

You are not talking about what God will not accept. Just like Moses, you are talking about what you will not accept and you are cloaking yourself in the mantel of the infinite. I am calling bullshit on you both.

The real truth is that homosexuals can be found in almost every species. There are straightforward biological rewards (handed out by God) not because there are homosexuals, but rather through the practical means that homosexuality amounts to.

Example. Wolves. Only the leaders of the pack procreate, passing along the strongest genes. All the other animals in the pack support those two in their quest for genetic success. The reward is not mere survival, it is stronger wolves.

Similarly, when a pack of protohumans have a gay man or woman among their number they have an extra pair of hands to support the group in its quest for survival. Hands not kept busy raising a family. In those days, we were talking about an immediate family member. But society succeeded. And grew large. And didn't need those extra hands, and stopped thinking of them as brothers and uncles, cousins and children, and decided to do them in. Literally. The word faggot means a bundle of sticks, which is something thrown into a fire.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot

Your argument, John, is that this is how things are supposed to be. In fact you have it backwards. What you call sin is natural. Of which forgiveness is lubriciously inappropriate. On the other hand, your holier than thou attitude runs afoul of several of the ten commandments.

#3 Thou shalt not take the Lords mane in vain.
You are using Gods name to justify your shit.

#6 Thou shalt not kill.
You want fags back in the shadows where anyone can do anything to them at no consequence.

#9 Thou shalt not bear false witness.
You are defining God and homosexuals to suit your own ends and you insist on being agreed with.

#10 Thou shalt not covet anything which is thy neighbors.
Like, oh i don't know, self determination?

So, who needs Gods forgiveness now? If you don't want to live by the rules you are laying down for others, fuck the hell out of you.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 9:00:56 PM

FrostedFlake

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P&R yet?

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/25/2012 9:14:58 PM

CRYPTICLXVI

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

P&R yet?

Not yet... but I loved your post.

Besides, your argument that god can speak to anyone, early church father, St Augustine (or Auggie as I called him back in college) essentially said that if you wanted to know god, you hd to know yourself, you had to seek within... it wasn't until St Aquinas (not a fan) who said, "nope" you cannot know god, god is too fucking big, god is out there.

And my other snark... what of those who believe more like the author of The Visionary Window, Amit Goswami, Ph.D. a quantum physicist and Hindu? My own personal spiritual path follows closer to Tantric Hindu and Buddhist thought and though I have no issue with the Abrahamic faiths, especially as writings, I do feel a closer resonance to other scriptures. Hell, including mystical Judaic and gnostic thought than the fundamental Christian belief system...

P&R??? Poof.

ETA FrostedFlake... I fucking love the new avatar, that kicks some serious ass.

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RE: Dear Boy Scouts: It's 2012. Not 1912. - 7/26/2012 7:40:25 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CRYPTICLXVI

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

This^^^

As a Christian, I apologize to homosexual people for how the churches have treated them.

I don't have any hatred or dislike of "Christians", both my mother and sister are Christian... I have an issue with those who use it to justify their own hatreds with no understanding where their beliefs come from...

I'm half Christian, half Jewish and consider myself Christian. I believe in God, I just don't believe in organized religion.

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