quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

And, then, kalikshama, if he can't provide for his own needs, then, he is one of those "truly needy" that we need to support. It's the people that aren't working when they have no actual disability. Those are the people who are not "truly needy" and those are the people who need to be weeded out.

Define a "true disability".

Is it medical? Because many states do not cover single people with no children under any program other than total disability.

I prefer a hand up rather than a hand out.

I would prefer people stand by their responsibilities... and that includes those with children.. instead of running out and leaving a woman.. or a man.. with a few kids, barely passable education, and a minimum wage job to fend for themselves.

I would prefer that people get educated beyond just high school... trade or college would enable many to simply rise above that minimum wage level to earn a living in keeping with self support, instead of survival.

You keep insisting no one listens.... but we do.

You just keep repeating the same lines and do not listen yourself.

quote:

That's the problem with progressives is, they never blame the individual for getting themselves into their situation in the first place. If YOU KNOW you're not good at formal education, or live in a depressed area, someone needs to tell them to fucking move, or learn a skill. But you'd rather just coddle them, and blame those evil conservatives for not giving up their wealth.

quote:

Progressive "gimme's" really make me sick. There is nothing in the Constitution that says person A has to take care of person B, and that just pisses you progressives off to no end. You'd rather have our lives be run by the most inefficient bureaucratic in the world rather than tell someone to take some fucking responsibility for your situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


The "truly needy" are those who legitimately can not provide for themselves.

I am not against Welfare, Food Stamps, or MedicAid as much as I'm against them being too easily abused. The only problem I ever see with someone using food stamps is when they get into their pimped out Explorer with spinner rims parked in the handicapped spot. People choosing to not work because they get more from welfare than they would from work are abusing the system, too. There are people who can not provide for themselves. Some of the elderly, or disabled, can't make ends meet and have no way to truly make any money to make those ends meet. Those are some of the truly needy. For people who have had a run of bad luck, or fallen on hard times, I'm not against giving those people a hand up. Hand outs are not the same by any stretch.

Does that help clarify my belief? If you have more questions pertaining to them, I'd more than gladly answer them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

And, then, kalikshama, if he can't provide for his own needs, then, he is one of those "truly needy" that we need to support. It's the people that aren't working when they have no actual disability. Those are the people who are not "truly needy" and those are the people who need to be weeded out.

Define a "true disability".

Is it medical? Because many states do not cover single people with no children under any program other than total disability.

I prefer a hand up rather than a hand out.

I would prefer people stand by their responsibilities... and that includes those with children.. instead of running out and leaving a woman.. or a man.. with a few kids, barely passable education, and a minimum wage job to fend for themselves.

I would prefer that people get educated beyond just high school... trade or college would enable many to simply rise above that minimum wage level to earn a living in keeping with self support, instead of survival.

You keep insisting no one listens.... but we do.

You just keep repeating the same lines and do not listen yourself.

That's the problem with progressives is, they never blame the individual for getting themselves into their situation in the first place. If YOU KNOW you're not good at formal education, or live in a depressed area, someone needs to tell them to fucking move, or learn a skill. But you'd rather just coddle them, and blame those evil conservatives for not giving up their wealth.

Progressive "gimme's" really make me sick. There is nothing in the Constitution that says person A has to take care of person B, and that just pisses you progressives off to no end. You'd rather have our lives be run by the most inefficient bureaucratic in the world rather than tell someone to take some fucking responsibility for your situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Now, since I have offered up the welfare queen... why dont you offer up the corporate fraudsters and lets compare numbers.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And while I think fraud in welfare is wise spread... its no more so than in corporations... which carries a far larger price tag.

quote:

Furthering the second half of your argument... since the US prison system is built on a theory that consequences prevent crime, I have to ask: what are the consequences for corporate fraud, versus those for private welfare fraud? Will a person on welfare be effectively losing their primary income if caught? Will a corporation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Thank you for listing your concerns. Is it a coincidence that it mirrors precisely the confected concerns an Australian right winger would list? And probably the same list of marginalised, voiceless people are being scapegoated by UK and European Right wingers too.

quote:


Voices that cannot answer back. It is touching that you exhibit such diligence and elevated concern over welfare fraud.
Yet, when it comes to the wealthy defrauding the Govt (through tax evasion and fraud, forcing you and me to pay extra taxes to make up the shortfall) you are conspicuously silent. You haven't contributed an iota to the '21 trillion in offshore funds' thread. You are silent on the massive tax frauds committed by the wealthy.

quote:


Screaming to the high heavens about the pittances allegedly gained by a tiny few impoverished souls yet silent (and complicit?) with the massive tax evasion by the Right's pin up boys - the superwealthy. - tells us far more than your words.
A very clear demonstration of the real priorities of the Right. Defending the interests of the superwealthy at the expense of the rest of us with about as much compassion as the Inquisition.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

John and Angela Kilbert, of McKeesport, were ordered to stand trial for allegedly bilking the welfare system out of $123,000.

Investigators said the Kilberts falsely claimed they were separated and then lied on welfare documents to receive food stamps, along with utility and medical benefits for six years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Why aren't Republicans fighting for single-payer health care since it would eliminate health insurance related marriage penalties?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Thank you for listing your concerns. Is it a coincidence that it mirrors precisely the confected concerns an Australian right winger would list? And probably the same list of marginalised, voiceless people are being scapegoated by UK and European Right wingers too.

OMG!!! The horrors! Conservatives in the US are ... had to take deep breath at the obviously divine miracle ... much like Conservatives in other countries?!?!?!? Whodathunkit?!?

quote:

shortfall) you are conspicuously silent. You haven't contributed an iota to the '21 trillion in offshore funds' thread. You are silent on the massive tax frauds committed by the wealthy.

quote:

Couple reasons for that, actually. First, by the time I saw that thread, there were already several pages of responses. I do have other things in my life than to play catch up just so I can be shouted down and ridiculed. And, secondly, well, none of you that disagree with me, will ever give much of anything I say an ounce of thought.

quote:




Lest ye forget, I'm all for separating Big Biz from Big Gov. I do believe our Government has been bought and paid for. I do believe there are too many lobbyists in DC, as lobbyists, and as Federal appointees. "It won't be business as usual" only meant that it will be the D's, not the R's, doing the crap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

shortfall) you are conspicuously silent. You haven't contributed an iota to the '21 trillion in offshore funds' thread. You are silent on the massive tax frauds committed by the wealthy.

quote:

Couple reasons for that, actually. First, by the time I saw that thread, there were already several pages of responses. I do have other things in my life than to play catch up just so I can be shouted down and ridiculed. And, secondly, well, none of you that disagree with me, will ever give much of anything I say an ounce of thought.

quote:



Silence speaks volumes? I see. So, because I'm not willing to read 6 pages (even though many posts have been deleted) from a thread just so I know where I can comment, and I didn't have a problem reading less than a page on another thread, I'm "speaking volumes?" As I've said many times, you have no idea who I am.

quote:


If you wish to be taken more seriously, please note that many of us don't pay too much attention to contrived ideologically-driven arguments that are contradicted by facts. For instance, I recall the tenacious manner in which you persisted with your silly claim "Lack of health care doesn't cause deaths" even when expert opinion and data was posted to prove your claim totally false. If you presented valid evidence to support your claims, instead of merely parroting ideological correctness, you might encounter a different reaction. Please try it sometime, you'll find it works.

There has yet to be any proof that lack of health care killed someone. Your tenacious grip on health care doing the killing instead of the disease doing the killing is what is truly silly.

quote:


Lest ye forget, I'm all for separating Big Biz from Big Gov. I do believe our Government has been bought and paid for. I do believe there are too many lobbyists in DC, as lobbyists, and as Federal appointees. "It won't be business as usual" only meant that it will be the D's, not the R's, doing the crap.

I don't doubt that you are sincere in your views. However, even when a large healthcare corp admits its corruption and pays a billion dollar fine to the Govt, you still managed to contrive a way of blaming only the Govt. It's hard to take such claims seriously - derision is more than they deserve. I am still awaiting a single reason why the Big Biz is more trustworthy than the Govt, or to see any facts demonstrating how Big Biz is more beneficial to ordinary people in an unregulated environment than a regulated one.
This is especially so in healthcare - the reason Americans pay twice as much as everyone else for less healthcare is down to the for-profit system the US has adopted, not Govt regulation, as even a cursory glance at the relevant statistics will tell you.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Just to contribute something to the question of fraud...

There's nowhere you could possibly stand to gain more by defrauding the welfare system than Norway. Yet the fraud rate is less than a percent of the welfare budget, equating to about five pints of beer per citizen per year as a high estimate. I'm more than happy to ignore that to have a population that can live with some dignity and not be desperate enough to commit crime to survive. By our standards, the USA is a developing country, mired in poverty. The middle class is barely above the poverty line. You've got more natural resources, more people, more trade and so forth. What is it that you lack?

Stop worrying so much about fraud. Any large body has inefficiencies. They're compounded by micromanaging to avoid fraud, and most of the time you hit as many innocents as guilty parties by the effort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz

Depends on your definition of fraud. I have a Norwegian friend who has been living on Student loans in the UK for the best part of a decade! The beers cheaper here he tells me ;-)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you wish to be taken more seriously, please note that many of us don't pay too much attention to contrived ideologically-driven arguments that are contradicted by facts. For instance, I recall the tenacious manner in which you persisted with your silly claim "Lack of health care doesn't cause deaths" even when expert opinion and data was posted to prove your claim totally false. If you presented valid evidence to support your claims, instead of merely parroting ideological correctness, you might encounter a different reaction. Please try it sometime, you'll find it works.[/color]

There has yet to be any proof that lack of health care killed someone. Your tenacious grip on health care doing the killing instead of the disease doing the killing is what is truly silly.

I don't completely agree with that at all. I do believe regulations have an impact on the cost of medical care. But, I don't see regulations as being the #1 cause. Never have. They do increase costs, though. Separate the insurance companies from care provider ownership, and you'll realize a reduction in costs. I'm not sure if that's what I think is the #1 reason or if it's #2. The other main reason is the American way of life. Our lifestyle is quite ostentatious, frenetic and consumption is king. Instead of taking care of our bodies, we abuse them, and then look to Big Med to fix the problem so we can continue abusing our bodies. I'm sure every culture does that to some extent, or within some part of their population, but it's a cultural thing here.

How much does a pack of cigarettes cost "Down Under?" I can't even tell you what they cost here (quite smoking over 14 years ago), but it's probably not exactly cheap. Cut out smokes and you'll have more money for everything else. Is a cell phone a need, or is it really more of a luxury? Alcohol?

The current President is poking and prodding for a class war. He's stoking the flames of jealousy, instead of stoking the flames of "you can do that, too." Essentially, what is going on here, is he's offering to give people what someone else has gained through legal activities and channels, if they vote for him. How anyone can look at that as the right way to do things is beyond me.