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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 2:48:26 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere. So there: no need to worry about carbondioxide.

Oh fuck me!

It's all so clear now!

You've fucking solved the whole issue in fewer than [however many words there are above - I can't be arsed to count them] words!

Seriously...

Call the Discovery Channel, The United Nations, the fucking Nobel Institute.

Rule has solved the fucking problem

Thank fuck.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 21

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 5:11:46 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
OISM is the Oregon institute of science and medicine which is the website you quote run out of the guys house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Richard Muller OTOH is a prominent researcher who was until this study so prominent a skeptic of global warming that the Koch brothers chose him as the ehad of the BEST project that they hoped would disprove global warming. Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

You make it sound like Robinson is some unschooled quack, running a web site out of his house. From your Wiki link -

Art Robinson has an undergraduate degree in chemistry from Caltech and a doctorate from the University of California, San Diego (UCSD). He was appointed to the UCSD faculty immediately after getting his Ph.D.[1] He resigned his position at UCSD in 1972.

quote:

Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

And Robinson is what? Not a true Scotsman?

Caltech? Doctorate at UCSD? He cites 132 sources at the bottom of the link I posted. This does not make him right by any means. But neither does your post settle it where even the author states These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 22

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 5:12:54 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

You can help by not eating plants. They are your friends!

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 23

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 11:42:01 AM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
OISM is the Oregon institute of science and medicine which is the website you quote run out of the guys house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Richard Muller OTOH is a prominent researcher who was until this study so prominent a skeptic of global warming that the Koch brothers chose him as the ehad of the BEST project that they hoped would disprove global warming. Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

You make it sound like Robinson is some unschooled quack, running a web site out of his house. From your Wiki link -

Art Robinson has an undergraduate degree in chemistry from Caltech and a doctorate from the University of California, San Diego (UCSD). He was appointed to the UCSD faculty immediately after getting his Ph.D.[1] He resigned his position at UCSD in 1972.

quote:

Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

And Robinson is what? Not a true Scotsman?

Caltech? Doctorate at UCSD? He cites 132 sources at the bottom of the link I posted. This does not make him right by any means. But neither does your post settle it where even the author states These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism

Ya think either of these genii (more than one genius) could figure out if they came down on the other side of the argument that they would lose funding? Think of it like working the counter at McDonald's and saying that Burger King or Wendy's had a better product and presentation. One would not keep their paycheck for long.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 24

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 11:49:51 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere. So there: no need to worry about carbondioxide.

Oh fuck me!

It's all so clear now!

You've fucking solved the whole issue in fewer than [however many words there are above - I can't be arsed to count them] words!

Seriously...

Call the Discovery Channel, The United Nations, the fucking Nobel Institute.

Rule has solved the fucking problem

Thank fuck.

Actually thats what carbon sequestration is about but it goes in the ground where the plants really thrive without poisoning the air.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 25

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 12:14:30 PM

Fellow

Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Actually that's what carbon sequestration is about but it goes in the ground where the plants really thrive without poisoning the air.

Using forestation for cure has some problems. It does work in principle, but we need to calculate the real effects carefully taking into account all the components. The mature forest carbon balance is close to zero, dark respiration balances carbon uptake. The plant community that effectively sequesters carbon is arctic peat moss, but the process is very slow and global warming is affecting these areas. Plant communities transpire large amounts of water vapor into air that contributes to greenhouse effect. They also absorb 90% of sunlight. Reforestation of wasteland areas is good, and it creates better environment by reducing pollution and enhancing wild animal life. However, as a solution for global warming it can not be very effective. Cutting off the forest and painting the ground white would have tremendous effect reducing global warming.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 26

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 12:27:05 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
OISM is the Oregon institute of science and medicine which is the website you quote run out of the guys house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Richard Muller OTOH is a prominent researcher who was until this study so prominent a skeptic of global warming that the Koch brothers chose him as the ehad of the BEST project that they hoped would disprove global warming. Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

You make it sound like Robinson is some unschooled quack, running a web site out of his house. From your Wiki link -

Art Robinson has an undergraduate degree in chemistry from Caltech and a doctorate from the University of California, San Diego (UCSD). He was appointed to the UCSD faculty immediately after getting his Ph.D.[1] He resigned his position at UCSD in 1972.

quote:

Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

And Robinson is what? Not a true Scotsman?

Caltech? Doctorate at UCSD? He cites 132 sources at the bottom of the link I posted. This does not make him right by any means. But neither does your post settle it where even the author states These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism

Robinson is a crank. He hasn't published any research in decades. His beliefs and claims are patently absurd. If you look around on the site you will find him selling a book he wrote on how to survive a nuclear war.

Muller is a working scientist with a lengthy curriculum vitae. The difference in credentials and reputation is quite large.

BTW OISM denies the climate is changing at all. Is that your contention?

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 27

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 12:29:51 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
OISM is the Oregon institute of science and medicine which is the website you quote run out of the guys house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Richard Muller OTOH is a prominent researcher who was until this study so prominent a skeptic of global warming that the Koch brothers chose him as the ehad of the BEST project that they hoped would disprove global warming. Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

You make it sound like Robinson is some unschooled quack, running a web site out of his house. From your Wiki link -

Art Robinson has an undergraduate degree in chemistry from Caltech and a doctorate from the University of California, San Diego (UCSD). He was appointed to the UCSD faculty immediately after getting his Ph.D.[1] He resigned his position at UCSD in 1972.

quote:

Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

And Robinson is what? Not a true Scotsman?

Caltech? Doctorate at UCSD? He cites 132 sources at the bottom of the link I posted. This does not make him right by any means. But neither does your post settle it where even the author states These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism

Ya think either of these genii (more than one genius) could figure out if they came down on the other side of the argument that they would lose funding? Think of it like working the counter at McDonald's and saying that Burger King or Wendy's had a better product and presentation. One would not keep their paycheck for long.

Muller's paychecks come from the Koch brothers, prominent climate change deniers. AS a matter of fact he was chosen by them specifically because he was a climate change skeptic and they wanted him to find some problem with the data supporting global warming. After extensively studying the data he changed his mind on climate change.

Funny how that is exactly the opposite of what you claim should be happening.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 28

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 3:41:23 PM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

OT -

I keep reading "denier" - someone who denies, as "denier" - opaqueness of pantyhose.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 29

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 3:45:58 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

OT -

I keep reading "denier" - someone who denies, as "denier" - opaqueness of pantyhose.

Yes, it looks odd but I refuse to call people who close their eyes and shout "I can't hear you" when confronted with evidence skeptics.

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 30

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 9:28:35 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

Yachtie
This does not make him right by any means. But neither does your post settle it where even the author states These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism

Short of direct causality, it is hard to think of a more compelling set of circumstances than these. The study was designed and set up by 'skeptics' It was funded by reactionaries hoping to prove the scientific consensus on climate change was incorrect. It appears to have been faithful to all scientific protocols. It addressed all the serious issues raised by genuine skeptics (ie those who had scientific concerns, not ideological objections). On every count, the study found the opposite to that its funders had hoped for. The author stands by his previous criticisms of past CC studies. Yet the main finding is unambiguous.

Increase in temps on the plant mirror exactly those predicted, and those that actually occurred when CO2 emissions are included, and this pattern has been consistent for over 250 years. Unless someone can produce a superior explanation, it would appear that the scientific climate change consensus has a status approaching that of the theory of evolution, not quite proven beyond all possible doubt, but light years ahead of any alternative explanation.

Yes this study doesn't prove causality, nor should it herald the end of skepticism. But it does mean that unless you have a better explanation than human-caused CO2 emissions do heat up the planet, you are no longer in the scientific game. I await alternative explanations from skeptics and, in the anticipated absence of such, suggest that, from a scientific perspective, that the climate change debate is over and the 'skeptics' have lost.

The discussion now shifts to what are we going to do about it?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/30/2012 9:30:25 PM >

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(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 31

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 9:46:53 PM

Marini

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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

Short of direct causality, it is hard to think of a more compelling set of circumstances than these. The study was designed and set up by 'skeptics' It was funded by reactionaries hoping to prove the scientific consensus on climate change was incorrect. It appears to have been faithful to all scientific protocols. It addressed all the serious issues raised by genuine skeptics (ie those who had scientific concerns, not ideological objections). On every count, the study found the opposite to that its funders had hoped for. The author stands by his previous criticisms of past CC studies. Yet the main finding is unambiguous.

Increase in temps on the plant mirror exactly those predicted, and those that actually occurred when CO2 emissions are included, and this pattern has been consistent for over 250 years. Unless someone can produce a superior explanation, it would appear that the scientific climate change consensus has a status approaching that of the theory of evolution, not quite proven beyond all possible doubt, but light years ahead of any alternative explanation.

Yes this study doesn't prove causality, nor should it herald the end of skepticism. But it does mean that unless you have a better explanation than human-caused CO2 emissions do heat up the planet, you are no longer in the scientific game. I await alternative explanations from skeptics and, in the anticipated absence of such, suggest that, from a scientific perspective, that the climate change debate is over and the 'skeptics' have lost.

The discussion now shifts to what are we going to do about it?

Another well thought out and well written post by tweaky.

tweaky, many rather spend the time and energy arguing, fighting and denying the fact that these changes are indeed real.

We are to the point, that the discussion needs to shift from denying what is happening to, "What are we going to do about it?"

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/30/2012 9:51:08 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 32

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 10:12:52 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

I am hoping that the silence of most of our resident CC 'skeptics' on this game-changing study indicates that they have absorbed the new data and realised that, however well founded their skepticism may have been, it is no longer tenable.

In an ideal world, they should be pondering the question: WHAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MEANS AT OUR DISPOSAL TO COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE?

It appears that some kind of mechanism to limit and eliminate CO2 emissions is absolutely necessary, and that concerted international action to combat climate change is unavoidable. It is already well established that the earlier effective action is taken, the cheaper and more efficient it will be.

Are our various countries going to be followers or leaders?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/30/2012 10:15:43 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 6:50:06 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

~FR~

Before you all get too excited and shut down the Industrial Revolution consider this from the op ed your boy wrote and cited by Ken:

"These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does."

Nevermind that warming and cooling has been going on for 800,000 years or more and often but not always with a correlation to CO2 in the atmosphere.

And this . . .

"It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed."

And further . . . .

"And it’s possible that we are currently no warmer than we were a thousand years ago, during the “Medieval Warm Period” or “Medieval Optimum,” an interval of warm conditions known from historical records and indirect evidence like tree rings. And the recent warm spell in the United States happens to be more than offset by cooling elsewhere in the world, so its link to “global” warming is weaker than tenuous."

So, there were factories and gas guzzling cars during the Medieval Warming?

Jeez, don't wet your britches, folks. I saw this guy interviewed by Rachel last night. He has a book to sell you.

Just sayin . . .

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 34

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 9:41:57 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

fr

I have a problem with any data set claimed by scientists as accurate -

New study shows half of the global warming in the USA is artificial

A reanalysis of U.S. surface station temperatures has been performed using the recently WMO-approved Siting Classification System devised by METEO-France’s Michel Leroy. The new siting classification more accurately characterizes the quality of the location in terms of monitoring long-term spatially representative surface temperature trends. The new analysis demonstrates that reported 1979-2008 U.S. temperature trends are spuriously doubled, with 92% of that over-estimation resulting from erroneous NOAA adjustments of well-sited stations upward. The paper is the first to use the updated siting system which addresses USHCN siting issues and data adjustments. (bolding added)

Sorry all you AGCC adherents. The data does not yet substantiate your claims.

From the OP -

These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism

Skepticism indeed.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 7/31/2012 9:46:04 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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Post #: 35

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 9:52:39 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

I have a problem with any data set claimed by scientists as accurate

Of course you do. It means you never have to address evidence.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 36

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 10:13:47 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I have a problem with any data set claimed by scientists as accurate

Of course you do. It means you never have to address evidence.

Given what I posted, that's hysterical.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 37

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 10:42:08 AM

Thaz

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Joined: 4/28/2012
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Various folks can continue to argue from a non fact based view point that climate change and indeed evolution or gravity doesnt happen the rest of us should get on with wondering what to do about it.

For as far as climate change goes, its happened. Its to late to prevent it. That ship has sailed. Go take a look at the news. What wth e need to do is work out to cope as well as we can with it.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 38

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 10:44:01 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Short of direct causality, it is hard to think of a more compelling set of circumstances than these. The study was designed and set up by 'skeptics' It was funded by reactionaries hoping to prove the scientific consensus on climate change was incorrect.

With respect to causality . . . at the start of his NY Times opinion piece Muller agrees that correlation does not prove causality. At the end of the piece he states this: "What about the future? As carbon dioxide emissions increase, the temperature should continue to rise," strongly implying causality. An intrinsic flaw in his reasoning, I think. Which is it? Correlation or cause/effect? Or just daydream predicting? Which is the cause and which is the effect? If you find data in his research that answers that question please point me to it.

btw, have a look at the study itself. It was funded by independent sources, not 'reactionaries.'

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 39

RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/31/2012 10:59:23 AM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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Well, when you can set up a control earth where fossil fuels aren't being burned in the same space as we occupy for the purposes of comparison, then you might have a leg to stand on with that sort of nitpicking.

And BTW: "independent sources" = "reactionary" just like "liberal" = "Marxist".

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(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 40

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