Lacking a Self (Full Version)

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Duskypearls -> Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 8:53:44 PM)

I had been pondering asking the following questions for several days, but have been very hesitant.

Is there anyone who feels single or multiple parts of themselves (mentally, emotionally and/or socially) did not develop as they should have? Does anyone feel as though nearly their entire SELF is absent, and they only have a life in response to other people.

I have only acquired the courage to ask this after seeing two of LadyHibiscus' posts on the ECT thread, lines from which follow:

I create my reason for living based entirely on other people. I wish I could focus on doing things for myself, but it's really not there, and might never be.

Being other-centered means that I lived a lot of my life to make other people happy, and while that was not a bad thing, it's my turn now.

Of any who feel this may be the case for them, do you find there may be a correlation between it and depression?

For those feeling/believing they are in this way, to whatever degree, have you any clue why it is you are so? Have you managed to change or improve upon this? If so, how?



littlewonder -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:12:13 PM)

That's my life. I have always felt that way because I well, am a chronic depressive. And yeah, my life is based on other people and thus another reason why I'm probably drawn to bdsm and being his slave. It makes me feel more alive and that there's a bit of light shining through the darkness by doing so. I have never felt that my life is lived for me. I'm just starting to learn about that now and trying to do so for myself with the help of Master to guide me to it.



DarkSteven -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:32:32 PM)

Duskypearls, there is a woman who lived in Greeley, now in Aurora, that is just developing a sense of self. I sent you a PM.



kitkat105 -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:33:31 PM)

I would agree that in my case there is definitely a correlation. I honestly feel like I had my own self identity growing up, but once I started suffering from depression (age 13) that part of me slowly started spiraling out of control. It's almost like I spend most of my time ensuring other people's happiness that when it comes to my own I either have no energy or motivation to.

For years I've had not many interests, etc, for this reason, and I'm finally at a point where I have the freedom to discover new things. It is very daunting though (essentially agoraphobic.. so going to new places, meeting new people is gut wrenching).



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:34:54 PM)

I'm glad I was motivating! :)

Actually I have a very strong sense of myself, and that's been reinforced through some pretty serious traumas. Much of that self was "invented", or self created. I have always been an edge person, the misfit, the one chosen last. Other people were like an alien species, and I spent a lot of time observing them, and mentally taking careful notes. I still do!

I had a lot of suicidal ideation a long time ago, and I think that once you are suicidal, that really never leaves you. Now, I am in no danger of suicide. I understand that it's not an option for me. Still, I need to invent reasons to keep going. I have my parents, and Jeddie parrot, and my business to take me through the next little while. My life stopped feeling important to me...well, pretty much when I went on the meds. :/ but it's important to my parents, and that's enough.

I've been depressed my whole life, but that really wasn't a thing recognized in kids back in the day, especially when they're the smartest one in the class. I wanted so badly to be someone else...so, I became someone else. I read a lot, and when I found a character in a book I admired, I worked on attaining whatever quality I admired in that person.

Now that every personality trait rates its own diagnosis, I sometimes wonder if I had some other thing happening. Doubt it. I am too empathic to be on the autism sprectrum, no matter how much light and sound bug me. No dissociation or psychotic breaks, though I did have a mental construct to kick myself along during rough patches. (Not a very helpful entity, mainly I was told stuff like "well, THAT was ill advised")

I'm rambling now, sorry... back laters with more thinky thougt!



Duskypearls -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:49:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Still, I need to invent reasons to keep going. I have my parents, and Jeddie parrot, and my business to take me through the next little while.


What do you think might happen if you didn't have friends, family or business to keep you holding on?



Duskypearls -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:51:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

That's my life. I have always felt that way because I well, am a chronic depressive. And yeah, my life is based on other people and thus another reason why I'm probably drawn to bdsm and being his slave. It makes me feel more alive and that there's a bit of light shining through the darkness by doing so. I have never felt that my life is lived for me. I'm just starting to learn about that now and trying to do so for myself with the help of Master to guide me to it.


Anything you can share?



Duskypearls -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:56:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitkat105

I would agree that in my case there is definitely a correlation. I honestly feel like I had my own self identity growing up, but once I started suffering from depression (age 13) that part of me slowly started spiraling out of control. It's almost like I spend most of my time ensuring other people's happiness that when it comes to my own I either have no energy or motivation to.For years I've had not many interests, etc, for this reason, and I'm finally at a point where I have the freedom to discover new things. It is very daunting though (essentially agoraphobic.. so going to new places, meeting new people is gut wrenching).


What are your feelings about yourself, and might there be a correlation between them and having no energy or motivation to pursue your own happiness?

No interests, i.e., nothing pleases, excites or resonates with you? Nothing in which to pour yourself from which you are able to receive sustenance internally?

Have you difficulty making/keeping friends?



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 9:57:24 PM)

I think about that a lot these days, Dusky. Do I say, Great, I don't have to do this anymore and find some tidy way to end it? Or do I come up with some other reason to carry on? Do I throw away my meds and see what happens?

Right now, I got nothing. That could change at any time, though. Life is like that.



littlewonder -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 10:08:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

That's my life. I have always felt that way because I well, am a chronic depressive. And yeah, my life is based on other people and thus another reason why I'm probably drawn to bdsm and being his slave. It makes me feel more alive and that there's a bit of light shining through the darkness by doing so. I have never felt that my life is lived for me. I'm just starting to learn about that now and trying to do so for myself with the help of Master to guide me to it.


Anything you can share?


Well my entire life has always been tied up with other people's. It was the only way I felt useful and as I said, alive. There was my dad who was sick, and then I met my husband and it was about helping him and then we had a child and my entire life was about her until she recently left a few years ago to be on her own as an adult and now I'm an empty nester and that alone leaves you lost on who you are. I didn't know where to begin or what to do or anything. Thankfully Master has been here to help me through that. And while I do tie myself up in him, he wants me to learn to be myself as well and to try and be me and not other people. He wants me to find myself basically and that is sooooooo not easy. I struggle every single day. I wake up thinking....what can I do today for someone? And then I have to remind myself what I can do for me. And that's can be frightening. It's like walking to the edge of a cliff and jumping and hoping something will catch you along the way to save you before you go splat and die lol.



SlipSlidingAway -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 10:18:18 PM)

I have self, but I don't always value it the way other people seem to.  I am the last on my list of people to take care of.  My needs take the back burner.  There are times I won't even sleep under the covers on my bed because I don't feel that I am worth mussing up the covers.  It's not that I'm lazy and don't want to make the bed.  I make beds, keep the house, etc and have for a long time.  It's definitely a product of my self image...

I have given a whole lot of thought to why I developed as I did.  I was the only child to survive out of my mom's 9 pregnancies.  An older brother was born prematurely and died at 12 hours old.  My mom and dad "had" to get married because of that pregnancy and then, lo and behold, no baby.  So, she spent a lot of time and effort trying to make a replacement.  She had 4 miscarriages before I came along. The fact that I was female was a bit of a detriment, I guess.  While my parents loved me, my mom especially felt that she'd failed in her reproductive capacity.  As the product of that failure- it sort of messed me up.  Add to that, when she found out she should never have been able to have kids, I became a "miracle".  I heard that great things were expected from this little girl who was never supposed to have been born.  I didn't want any of that.  I just wanted to be a normal kid.  I always felt like I did not belong here.

I grew up in a Christian household.  I was told that my brother and the other pregnancies had all gone to heaven.  So, as a 5 or 6 year old, I got this notion into my head that I was no miracle, God simply had no use for me.  I was the one left behind.  I grew up always trying to make up for my shortcomings.  My existence (which, by that time, I believed was a cosmic mistake) left me feeling that I deserved nothing, and so to give value to my existence I lived to try to make others happy. 

I have worked through some of that.  Some, not so much.  While I can look at all that now and know, on an intellectual level, that it's hogwash- it does not change the way I developed because of those early beliefs.  Not blaming anybody, not my thing, and I have no doubt others may have gone through similar (or much worse) and ended up just fine.  Pretty sure a lot of it was simply how I am wired.  I'm a product of both nature and nurture.  I definitely have a tendency toward depression; but, in my case, I don't think my feeling of diminished self is a result of the depression as much as the cause of it.




sexyred1 -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 10:26:48 PM)

When you are depressed, you are not really lacking a self, you have just turned anger inside towards yourself.

Some people manifest depression either by making other people the center of their world and giving of themselves to the exclusion of not caring about themselves and only seeing themselves and receiving validation from outside sources.

Others manifest depression by becoming entirely self centered and self obsessed. One of the characteristics of depression is lack of joy, hope, etc. Suicide is a selfish act.

And yet others, handle their depression as best they can and try to find coping mechanisms.

I happen to think that if you lack a self, you would not be aware of anything to be depressed about, so the question remains what is about yourself that you are unhappy with.

And then again, we are meant to connect with other people, so lacking a clear sense of self might make that problematic.




CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 10:52:56 PM)


quote:

Is there anyone who feels single or multiple parts of themselves (mentally, emotionally and/or socially) did not develop as they should have?


Yes, in the past tense. I survived my childhood, but I definitely did not turn out in a way that would make living the rest of my life bearable. When the time came, I began reading as many books as possible and studying other people (and went to shrinks) and made changes in myself over time. In baby steps. I had to reclaim myself, if that makes any sense to you. My father had been mentally ill, which led to an addiction to prescription meds and then to alcoholism. He felt the call to be "King of his house" but lacked the needed competence and caretaking skills...so I was raised to be micromanaged, a slave who doesn't question anything. The problem was is that without him there, though it was a huge relief, left me completely lost. I didn't know how to do anything because part of me waited for orders, and I struggled with the WHEN and to what degree anything should be done. I had almost zero ability to say no, or to get angry. My life revolved around other people's needs and expectations, not my own. I needed to find balance in my life, and to repair the damage so I could feel like...a person...again. I think I was in my mid 30s before I was satisfied with myself.

quote:

Does anyone feel as though nearly their entire SELF is absent, and they only have a life in response to other people.

Mostly in the past tense, but occasionally I lose myself in service to someone else. This last time was while a next door neighbor and friend of mine was dying from cancer. It took a year and by the end there was almost nothing left of me. I regret nothing, I did what had to be done and damn the expense to self, but...I am very wary of making that kind of sacrifice again. Healing from that has been a b*tch.

Long time ago when I lived in California, my answer would have been a definite YES. At one job I had been promoted three times and...others in management didn't see me cuz I had just come downstairs but I heard them talking about me. A guy was hamming up, holding court and cracking everyone up...and then his little comedy centered on me. He said that, "Has anyone else noticed *******'s ego problem?!" And others were all saying, "WTF are you talking about? She doesn't have an ego problem." Then he laughed out loud that my problem was that I DIDN'T HAVE any ego, and then everyone cracked up laughing telling him he's right. I just stayed in the shadows, digesting that. It hurt, I felt confused that they would talk about me like this behind my back and be laughing...when I was doing everything "right", always dependable and helpful and quiet as a mouse. Somehow all the men disrespected me for who I was and not how well I got things done.

quote:

I have only acquired the courage to ask this after seeing two of LadyHibiscus' posts on the ECT thread, lines from which follow:

I create my reason for living based entirely on other people. I wish I could focus on doing things for myself, but it's really not there, and might never be.

Being other-centered means that I lived a lot of my life to make other people happy, and while that was not a bad thing, it's my turn now.

I didn't catch that other thread, so thanks for posting that here. I never thought of it as being other-centered, but yes, that does resonate with me. Being other-centered is somehow different now that I have control over my nature and have a choice. I don't get swept away handling other people's needs as easily. I thought my work was over until I had cancer that first time, but somewhere during the second, third, and fourth times something changed inside of me. Thinking about my death made me think about my life and appreciate each day, even the bad ones, even more. It's MY life. I know words cannot express the ownership I feel over myself now, lol, and that all that caretaking I did for other people...I focus some of that on myself. Indeed, it IS my turn now.

quote:

Of any who feel this may be the case for them, do you find there may be a correlation between it and depression?

Back then I felt numb all the time. Feeling sad would sometimes break through, but this was rare. I guess I would have been diagnosed as depressed but I wasn't taken to a shrink; we had a bad experience with counselors when I was six and then later when I was around 11 and it made us lose respect and trust. I was so deep in "shut down" mode that my stepfather assumed I was taking drugs. Nope, my family did not drag me in to get me tested, nor to get to the bottom of why the eldest daughter of the house was a spiritless zombie.

I cannot really think of it as depression, cuz I went through depression during my several bouts with cancer. I will try to explain it better though...I felt nothing, "all the time". The problem wasn't the lack of lows, or depression, it was the lack of any happy thoughts. Joy in life. I functioned very well, but never went through any typical teenager stages of defiance and all that. I never needed a scolding nor to be punished. Could this possibly be labeled as depression? Being told what to do was a calming thing, not something I resented because...I fit in somewhere, had a purpose, a place. It was comfortable, if not "happy". I would gladly give up all the violence and pain in exchange for a peaceful existence where I could try to make others feel more peaceful and comfortable.

quote:

For those feeling/believing they are in this way, to whatever degree, have you any clue why it is you are so? Have you managed to change or improve upon this? If so, how?

Since I have done a deep study of myself and thought everything to death, yes, I know what molded my personality as well as what I started out as and was lost to me for many years. Yes, I've done my homework and continue to do so. [;)]

How? It's complicated. Done in baby steps. Sometimes when I am ready to deal with some past garbage, my brain digs it out of the skeleton closet and it is time to roll up my sleeves and get to work. Some of this involves turning into a waaah waaah and running to a friend to spill my guts. She listens without criticism, disbelief, or "should haves", and I can calm down enough to start with the repair work. I am tired of handling past shiite that left scar tissue and each time another bone drops out of my closet I am like, "That's ENOUGH already!"

I LIKE MYSELF; I am one of my greatest life's works...and am still a work in progress.

Btw, one thing I have learned is that my life needs a balance; to recognise when I feel myself being sucked dry...and when I need to be selfish and put my own needs first.



kitkat105 -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/30/2012 11:22:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I had a lot of suicidal ideation a long time ago, and I think that once you are suicidal, that really never leaves you. Now, I am in no danger of suicide. I understand that it's not an option for me.


Yup. Hitting rock bottom is both a blessing and a curse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

What are your feelings about yourself, and might there be a correlation between them and having no energy or motivation to pursue your own happiness?

No interests, i.e., nothing pleases, excites or resonates with you? Nothing in which to pour yourself from which you are able to receive sustenance internally?

Have you difficulty making/keeping friends?


I've had awful to non-existent self esteem for a very long time.

Being depressed, constantly, during formative years was incredibly exhausting. I had to try and hide a lot of it, so kept up a facade of everything being okay for a very long time till I finally broke.

For the longest time I didn't have any interests because firstly I had no interest in breathing/living. Then my abusive ex did an A+ job at making me feel hopeless and uninteresting.

Luckily, I still have some from my childhood but I have struggled to make/keep any since I was teen. Now it's gotten to the point I'm afraid of making friends because I don't want to get hurt by them leaving me.



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 12:28:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

What do you think might happen if you didn't have friends, family or business to keep you holding on?


This is a good question, and even though it was not directed at me I will share with you my coping mechanisms at that time.

When I took a one way trip on a Trailways bus at 17 from WV to California, I was completely alone. The aloneness feeling never left, so I adopted a cat that was foisted upon me. Living in this world had always sucked and from early childhood I wanted to die. Not in some melodramatic way where everyone was so very sorry for what they had done, yanno? Just...to make everything stop so I could have peace. Yes, I tried to kill myself several times between the ages of 11 to 13, but my guardian angel was working overtime and foiled my plans. To this day I have no other explanation why a full bottle of aspirin, half a bottle of fluid pills and scores more of whatever I had snuck out of the medicine cabinet and hoarded for several months until I figured I had enough...didn't even give me a belly ache. Nobody knew until years later when I told them.

Anyway, being in California was better than death. Not by much, most of the time, but it had it's good moments. The cat saved my life for five years...cuz if I died there was nobody to come in and take care of her and she would suffer before dying. I couldn't toss her outside because she was declawed in all four paws, and if another animal didn't hurt her, a car would squash her, so each day when I wanted to leave this world I had to hang on another day.

When I saw The Princess Bride and heard that, "Goodnight, Wesley. I'll likely kill you in the morning" going on for years and years I almost fell off my chair laughing, because it reminded me in a strange way of my own staying power, in spite of all the odds.

Anyway...another thing I did was leave dirty dishes in the sink. On purpose. See, I could never give in and die without the kitchen and entire house being clean first. I know I'm strange; I love a spotless house and used to get teased for even dusting off the light bulbs BUT...I have found a strange comfort in having a cluttered and even messy home. It is not like a motel room, like nobody lives there. I LIVE, and my hobbies can be seen in every room.

People come up with the most strange coping mechanisms, don't they? [:D]



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 1:02:17 AM)

I feel this way a lot - the quote from Lady Hib in the OP is great. I sometimes wish I could find all this motivation from within myself, because it's what's considered nnormal, but I don't think I ever will. I don't feel that I lack "self," but that my self is quite wrapped up in other people.



Winterapple -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 1:23:57 AM)

A therapist once told me I was emotionally frozen at about
the age my father left us. And I think there's truth
in that. I've never identified with the Daddy dynamic
quite the opposite I've tried to actively avoid
it. But there is a pattern in my relationships
with men where at some point they become
fatherly and I rebel against it probably
relating to my abandonment issues
surrounding my birth father.
I'm more anxious and high strung than
depressive but I have a meloncholic streak.
I was bulimic and I know that steamed
from a lot of things including self hatred.
I was actively killing myself but I was in
denial that I was. When I was drug into
treatment and this was pointed out to me
I denied and said I would never kill myself
my mother needs me and it would hurt
my grandparents to much.

My mother once asked me when she discovered
me basically writing a term paper for a friend
why I was always willing to help others but
not help myself? I tried to deny that was true.
I don't think I lack a sense of self but I've been
in therapy off and on my entire adult life
and some gluing together of the fragments
has occurred. I've found some peace in studying
Buddhism and meditating and yoga.
But I think the thing that's kept any stable
ego in my life is art. Creating and expressing
through art has been my life jacket.



TheBanshee -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 5:03:28 AM)

We are all social beings, therefore we do need other people in our lives. The fact that you need your people to make you feel more complete is normal. It is a double-edged sword though, sometimes those other people in your live are healthy for you and often they may not be - they have some of the same issues.

Sometimes I look at my friends profiles on Facebook and such and I wonder - their lives seem so full of fun and excitement and the pictures they post look like they are having the best lives. Then - I might talk to someone and I hear what's really going on in their life. It may be good at times but they are also having problems with this or that and its not all as perfect as the Facebook pictures might make you think. It isn't that I want my friends to have problems, mind you, but I don't feel like I'm the only one who doesn't have a perfect life.




stellauk -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 5:22:13 AM)

I sometimes wish that I did lack a self..

My being transgendered influences my relationship with myself. Before I started to transition my 'self' was the problem and I would do what I could to create a new 'self' based on how other people perceived me, i.e. as a male.

I didn't go through my childhood convinced that I was female. I was just convinced that I was different, that I couldn't be reached by anyone, because I had the constant feeling that the 'me' that other people were seeing and relating to was someone else. In wanting to become 'normal' I tried so hard to be that man, that other person.

Then I went through a 'crossdresser' phase where I was convinced that I was two genders in one, but I couldn't escape the need to conceal part of myself from others, or to deceive others, and there was a time when I presented myself as I felt people would expect me to be.

All through there was an internal conflict, there was tension, stress, although by the same token it helped me in my short-lived career as an actor. But the stress and tension was a bit like a bad headache, it was always there, never any escape from it.

Transitioning brought relief, as did the hormones, my questioning, exploration and discoveries brought a new need to explore and discover, but this time to unlearn much of what I had learned in life.

In getting to know myself the second time around, in my acquired gender role, I realized that I haven't changed much, and it's more the case that my gender identity was hidden, obscured, concealed, and only the functioning part is acquired.

This brought a new perspective, and I discovered that depression has always been there in my life (previously it was masked by gender dysmorphia) and it is a sort of a shadow to my creativity.

I've since learned that it isn't other people or my relationships which sustain me, but my creativity. I can be self-contained, isolated, reclusive, and still function, but I function better with other people.

I tend to be other-centred because I'm sensitive to energy flows from people, and I can draw on energy through service and supporting others, even if I can become momentarily drained. I'm told I give off energy too. When I'm drained I tend to withdraw and isolate to allow myself time and opportunity to regenerate.

In my case theatre was instrumental in enabling me to develop a sense of self. Not being a consistent person means that my depression isn't consistent, it ebbs and flows, I can be fine and then all of a sudden experience a sudden 'drop'.

It isn't that I lack a sense of self during my depressive periods, it's more the case that I perceive myself differently. Before I would need contact with other people, certain other people, to regain my self-confidence and also a sense of validation, but more recently I have developed more independent ways of providing my own validation, such as photography.



LaTigresse -> RE: Lacking a Self (7/31/2012 7:21:30 AM)

Dusky, I actually think that you've brought up an issue that affects a lot of women. Men also, but I believe in different ways.

Even with all of the freedoms women have legally and politically, there is a much deeper binding at play. The idea of how a woman 'should be'. It's constantly reinforced all around us.

We laud women that break free, but yet we (generic we) also criticize them and try to tear them down. I use Hillary Clinton as an example. The woman has a brain that amazes me. Yet let her step out with less than perfect makeup, hair, or an odd outfit, and people are sniping about it.

There is still a very deep undercurrent that places expectations on women to be a certain way.

That all being said. I think from a very young age, we see those expectations, combine them with the expectations of the people in our lives, and tend to do our level best to adapt. For some that may fit very well. For others, it doesn't.........at all. We create these lives that, on the surface, look like the perfect life. We make ourselves into an image that we've been taught to believe is perfect and expect that we should be happy.

We lose ourselves.

Some manage to fight it, find themselves, either remove themselves from that construct.........or figure out a way to adapt the life we've built to fit us. Others remain stuck and miserable. I think it takes a lot of strength and self awareness to get past it. Some find a great support system to help them. Others find a way to slog through it on their own.



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