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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/7/2012 11:03:35 PM

tweakabelle

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One of my abiding memories from an otherwise forgettable GOP primary season this year was the sight of a TV audience's reaction to Texas Gov. Perry's boasts about how many executions had taken place under his rule. They went ballistic - cheering hollering clapping wildly stamping their feet. It looked like pure blood lust to me. Horrifying.

No society that executes mentally ill people - people who don't possess the capacity to determine right from wrong - can ever call itself civilised.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/7/2012 11:04:49 PM >

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/7/2012 11:13:44 PM

DaddySatyr

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Using FR

Someone on these boards once said: "Fair is some place where pigs win ribbons and has little place in a court of law"

I didn't agree with the statement then and I still don't but I think it's germane, here.

We have different states for a reason. I like any time that the federal government isn't involved in things that should be the states' business.

To expect 50 states, acting independently to be "fair" across all 50 states is not sensible.

I don't think we should be executing the mentally ill, at all but for me, the pertinent question is: Is each state implementing their death penalty fairly?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 8/7/2012 11:34:24 PM >

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/7/2012 11:34:49 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Some crimes demand the ultimate punishment, and I question whether we have any business calling ourselves a "civilized society," if we lack the courage to stop such criminals from breathing our air.

There's nothing "courageous" about it.

Cowards can always come up with all sorts of nifty rationalizations, Muse. Sometimes, you have to do the hard thing, even when it is awful and ugly, because it fucking well needs to be done.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 8/7/2012 11:35:59 PM >

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 4:55:56 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Cowards can always come up with all sorts of nifty rationalizations, Muse.

So can armchair warriors. Case in point.

If this is "courage" to you, you've no idea what courage looks like.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 6:39:11 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
If this is "courage" to you, you've no idea what courage looks like.

Filing under, "whatever," Muse.

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Post #: 25

RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 6:55:51 AM

Musicmystery

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Not surprised.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 7:00:21 AM

stellauk

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Oh Lord, not again..

There's supposedly an international agreement between countries who retain the death penalty not to execute anyone who is 'insane' or mentally retarded.

For example in the United States there is the US Supreme Court ruling Ford v. Wainwright 477 U.S. 399 (1986) which ruled that executing the 'insane' violates the Eighth Amendment and is therefore unconstitutional. This ruling contains an opinion by Justice Thurgood Marshall based on a review of the evolving standards of the Eighth Amendment to be those consistent with "...the progress of a maturing society....." and one not tolerable of acts traditionally branded as "..savage and inhuman...".

This same principle is similarly worded in Atkins v. Virginia 536 US 304 (2002) which declared executing the mentally retarded violates the Eighth Amendment because the Eighth Amendment should be interpreted in light of "..the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society..".

On principle it should follow that executing someone with a mental illness is also unconstitutional (given that the modern definition of mental illness is broader and not entirely synonymous with 'insane'). However this is a grey issue which can be interpreted different ways and I think this is an issue which goes beyond the death penalty because it remains an issue in the criminal justice system as a whole.

However countries do violate the international agreement just as states in the US periodically violate these rulings above. It would be far better to completely abolish the death penalty altogether.

The death penalty is an outdated form of retributive justice which has no place in any society which regards itself as civilized.

It is counter-productive to the core principles of criminal justice, because it shifts the entire emphasis in a trial away from where it is more important, i.e. establishing the truth or facts of a crime together with the reasons and motivations (which should influence sentencing). Furthermore as it is applied usually for murder it also shifts the emphasis away from the victim and the impact on the surviving family and friends.

Instead it places more emphasis on the criminal, and the emphasis of the trial is on whether that person deserves to live or die. In such a situation human nature makes it that the truth becomes skewed.

The death penalty cannot be justified by any sort of morality. No modern religion advocates it - thou shalt not kill. Yet you find elected governments who advocate the death penalty. The death penalty places that government on a par with organized criminals (who also exact "justice" by killing people). Why then bother to have law enforcement or a criminal justice system at all? Why not simply hand the job over to the mafia and have done with it?

My opposition to the death penalty does not diminish in any way the value of the life of the victim. The bereavement through the loss of someone close to us has to be one of the most intensely traumatic experiences we could ever go through as human beings. It doesn't matter whether it is a parent, a sibling, a child, or a partner, bereavement is often a life-long experience for those who experience it.

The death penalty compounds the trauma and the pain of bereavement and creates something which is just as bad for the family and friends of the criminal - people who are entirely unconnected with the crime. It's not just the condemned criminal who suffers on execution day. They do too.

There is a perfectly decent and valid alternative to the death penalty which works and that is life without parole. I believe that achievement of a mature and decent society requires the necessity of permanent exclusion of people who have taken life (exact same principle - thou shalt not kill - and killing is unacceptable in a society which deems itself civilized). I also believe that criminal justice should be effective enough for those who do not respect the law to fear it.

But the hallmark of a civilized society is one of humanity, equality and compassion.

The death penalty contains none of these qualities.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 7:02:19 AM

Yachtie

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Why is okay for some states to still execute the mentally ill and other states NOT be able to execute the mentally ill?

10th Amendment - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Pretty simple answer to the question actually. Now, if one wants to know why Rhode Island does not yet Texas does, well that a different question.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 7:31:42 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tumblweed

I think that anyone who murders should be put to death no matter their condition.

But understand that murder is only the absolutely intentional killing of a human being for gain, glory or in SOME cases revenge.

Do those who start and participate in wars of aggression and agrandisement qualify for the death penality?

quote:

But then those who lack the mental capacity to live in society must be removed, and execution works fine. It is a tough world. Too bad. We MUST do what is right for us, who make the place better, and do what gets rid of those who make the places wronger, or worser, or something like that.

Kinda like all of the native americans who were making the place wronger for those who wanted to make it righter?

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 7:33:37 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

quote:

Call it justice if you want, just don't call it fair.

Life isn't fair so why would you expect jurors and justices to be?

The phrase "life isn't fair" seems to be a pretty easy way to avoid resoponsibility for not seeking to make it more fair.

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Post #: 30

RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 9:16:12 AM

RemoteUser

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We don't have the death penalty in Canada, so the notion itself goes a little against the grain.

As for executing the mentally ill: there are way too many things that should be looked at before execution was even considered, let alone doled out. What is the illness? How does it present? What therapies and medications have been implemented? Was more than one psychiatrist consulted? What was done for this person to help them?

Mentally illness should not be an excuse, it should be a point of law and definition of whether or not capacity can be met in terms of whether punishment will work, let alone what kind of punishment. If you don't know right from wrong, can you really form rational intent?

There are better solutions than death. That might not make some people happy, but law is about justice, not revenge. The death penalty is social revenge; if you have to have it, then call a spade a spade for pity's sake.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 5:52:18 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
The death penalty is social revenge

No. The death penalty, when appropriate, is the justice some crimes demand.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 6:12:21 PM

LizDeluxe

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It's called "capital punishment" instead of "capital deterrence" for a reason. The object is to punish, not to deter.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 7:15:31 PM

kdsub

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quote:

The death penalty is not a deterrant

It certainly is to the person convicted... they will not kill again... Have you any idea how many convicted murders kill again?

Butch

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 7:36:00 PM

kdsub

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quote:

a symptom of some form of mental illness

Is the lack of a conscience a mental illness…or just a deviation from the norm…In fact should all deviations from the norm be considered mentally ill? If you believe that then we are mentally ill.

Only those who are so delusional that they do NOT know they are killing and or what they are being punished for deserve a consideration of clemency.

Some people are born or raised to not have the conscience that most people have that prevents them from purposely taking another life. In my opinion murders do not kill because they are mentally ill. They may have a mental illness but it is the lack of a social conscience, to control their anger and greed, that is the deciding factor in their behavior.

I agree that the death penalty is not administered fairly and stricter regulation needs to be universally in place before I support it….BUT… that is different from saying who deserves it.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 8:49:02 PM

Marini

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

a symptom of some form of mental illness

Is the lack of a conscience a mental illness…or just a deviation from the norm…In fact should all deviations from the norm be considered mentally ill? If you believe that then we are mentally ill.

Only those who are so delusional that they do NOT know they are killing and or what they are being punished for deserve a consideration of clemency.

Some people are born or raised to not have the conscience that most people have that prevents them from purposely taking another life. In my opinion murders do not kill because they are mentally ill. They may have a mental illness but it is the lack of a social conscience, to control their anger and greed, that is the deciding factor in their behavior.

I agree that the death penalty is not administered fairly and stricter regulation needs to be universally in place before I support it….BUT… that is different from saying who deserves it.

The fact that this is a state's right issue, and is applied so
blatantly unfair is one of the main issue's here.
Thank you all for sharing your points of view.
I found all of the responses interesting.

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/8/2012 8:55:41 PM

kdsub

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quote:

The fact that this is a state's right issue, and is applied so
blatantly unfair is one of the main issue's here

I agree

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 12:25:41 AM

Tumblweed

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So much for this shit. We execute based on the consequences of one's actions. The mental capacity of a murderer has nothing to do with the consequences. Quit muddying up the subject. You want to treat murderers, well hey, maybe we should just send them all to you.

What you all in other countries don't seem to realize is that the US is not yet civilised.

Weed

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 12:27:28 AM

Tumblweed

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"The fact that this is a state's right issue"

I got some advice for you all. Don't kill people in states where they have the death penalty.

Weed

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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 12:28:18 AM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Why is okay for some states to still execute the mentally ill and other states NOT be able to execute the mentally ill?

10th Amendment - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Pretty simple answer to the question actually. Now, if one wants to know why Rhode Island does not yet Texas does, well that a different question.

Wrong answer. Definitely a simple answer that might appeal to simple minds but nevertheless an utterly wrong answer.

It's never OK to execute the mentally ill. Just the same as it's never OK to execute a child, which demands the same amount of 'courage' or more accurately cowardice . It's a moral issue, not a State's rights issue.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/9/2012 12:34:08 AM >

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