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RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 6:28:22 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Legally ordained murder. Wow! Isn't that what abortion is?


That depends on at what point human life begins. If you could establish that, the debate would be over.

In the meantime, execution and war are clearly legally ordained murder, with no doubt we're terminating human life. When the "right-to-lifers" get behind that, I'll take their rhetoric seriously. Until then, it's partisan noise.


The debate is actually over on this one, there is whining and caterwauling about it, but SCOTUS settled it in Roe v. Wade.

Life begins at the point where there is a high chance of viability outside the womb.

Thats why abortion is illegal after about 28 weeks in some states. 



yeh yeh whatever.

you people dont get it.

these are commercial courts.

with commercial ends.

they established when life can be catalogged filed and indexed into the commercial system.

Even tards know life as it pertains to "man" NOT the artificial "HU"man is a continuation and begins at conception.

Unless of course people start giving birth to rocks.

The life of your commercial franchise with the gubafia is NOT the same as the life of man.

but you knew that.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 7:56:21 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

May I ask...what difference does a low IQ make when it comes to murder. I happen to know more that a few mentally handicapped individuals and none of them would dream of hurting a fly let alone another human being. It is demeaning for you to even hint that low IQ makes a murderer.


I don't see where Marini is saying that but she can defend herself.

awwwwww

My question to you is if low IQ is not a barrier to execution why should youth be a barrier? Or do you think children should be executed equally with adults?


Aww thanks Vince, I don't feel attacked at all.
I love hearing different points of view!
kd is being polite.

We can always agree to disagree, can't we?

To be honest, I am 90% against capital punishment, but a few of these heinous crimes and criminals, make me almost want to pull the switch myself. *

*Cases where there is 100% no doubt/witnesses/mountains of clear evidence.

I just hate that capital punishment is a state's rights issue, is BLATANTLY
unfair, especially to those least able to afford the BEST attorney's money can buy!!!!


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/9/2012 8:21:05 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:01:37 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I just hate that capital punishment is a state's rights decision, and is so blatantly unfair, especially to those least able to afford the BEST attorney's money can buy!!!!




but thats why we love them!

Statism should be abolished along with corporations and trusts.

My what a future the planet would have with everyone on a more equal turf.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:25:33 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

Ah! Thanks, Butch. I've been looking for a really clear example of a 'straw man argument' to explain the idea to my niece. :-)


You are quite welcome and all I ask is you use my name as author in the credits...

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:27:50 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

We can always agree to disagree


Marini…I hope I did not come off attacking… that was not my intention. I truly am trying to understand why you think a low IQ should be a consideration in a murder trial.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:34:55 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I don't see where Marini is saying that but she can defend herself


Vince she did not say anything...and I am asking... I cannot see how statement can mean anything else...without an explanation.

Just because I don't think IQ should necessarily be a consideration in murder does not mean I think all children committing murder should be executed....But... I am not saying none should be either.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:38:16 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

We can always agree to disagree


Marini…I hope I did not come off attacking… that was not my intention. I truly am trying to understand why you think a low IQ should be a consideration in a murder trial.

Butch


Hypothetically speaking, is any IQ too low?
How about someone with an IQ between 30-50? {moderate to severe mental retardation}
What about those in a psychotic state? bi-polar? schizophrenic?

In your world is any IQ too low, any mental illness too severe, that would exempt someone from the death penalty?

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/9/2012 8:39:15 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:48:36 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

In your world is any IQ too low, any mental illness too severe, that would exempt someone from the death penalty


Yes and I've stated the standard before...

"Only those who are so delusional that they do NOT know they are killing and or what they are being punished for deserve a consideration of clemency."

The above could cover your severely retarded depending on the circumstances...but just a low IQ is not being delusional...and even with a low IQ they can understand what they did wrong and why they are being punished.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 8:57:29 PM   
Marini


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You don't realize how circular this argument is.

Psychology is one of my area's of great interest, and delusional is a slippery slope.
I have issues with the word "delusional".

CBS News- Holmes attorney's claim he is delusional

Surely you know the attorney's for young James, claim he is delusional??

Many people that commit heinous crimes, especially vicious and violent murders are "delusional".

Come on now kd, we can discuss certain terminology for the next 50 years.
............................. next

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/9/2012 9:00:18 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:00:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
That determination is for the professionals...but still a standard.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:03:45 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That determination is for the professionals...but still a standard.

Butch


LOL, let the "professionals" decide than Butch, and most/many will be declared delusional.

Everyone with enough money, or good/great defense team will be declared "delusional" or certainly have another psychiatric illness.

PEACE

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/9/2012 9:09:21 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:15:56 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
The Supreme court agrees with me...lol why can't you...

But the facts do not support your contention... the insanity defense is often used but seldom successful...for rich and poor.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/9/2012 9:16:34 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:17:34 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The Supreme court agrees with me...lol why can't you...

But the facts do not support your contention... the insanity defense is often used but seldom successful...for rich and poor.

Butch


Butch, how many "mentally ill" rich people have ever been given the death penalty, and than had it carried out?

Night Butch

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/9/2012 9:22:13 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:20:56 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Butch, how many super rich people have been put to death


But the above has nothing to do with low IQ... I agree money always makes a difference...And a good night to you too.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:22:17 PM   
Tumblweed


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Joined: 8/5/2012
Status: offline
Actually if the proof is postive, execute them. The problem is if they are not competent to stand trial they might not be able to defend against this corrupt system, even if innocent.

But to me it is not the issue of mental illness or anything being an excuse, it is not as far as I am concerned. But if they are actually feeble minded they could be wrongly convicted or maybe even framed.

Weed

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/9/2012 9:24:31 PM   
Tumblweed


Posts: 96
Joined: 8/5/2012
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"has nothing to do with low IQ... I agree money always makes a difference"

OJ Simpson ? He should've known better than to marry that broad. He could have got all the pussy he want ANYWHERE.

Dumb mother fucker. Whatcha gonna do ?

Weed

(in reply to Tumblweed)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/10/2012 2:18:43 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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There are some rather odd values displayed in some posts above.

These posts sound blase about people using their wealth to avoid the death sentence, but are unable to find any mercy for some one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong. I find it hard to avoid the impression that they seek any excuse to create a few corpses so that they can feel good about the "war on crime". It's so sad that the same blood lust that permeated the TV audience during the GOP primaries, that fired the repugnant reaction to Perry's boasts about how many he had executed, seems to be operating here. (That black Americans are hugely over-represented in these cases provides another far from flattering explanation).

If the ability to distinguish right from wrong isn't a factor that demands clemency, then why aren't these people calling for the execution of children? I am unable to find any moral grounds that might justify the execution of mentally ill people - it is repulsive barbarism.

_____________________________



(in reply to Tumblweed)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/10/2012 5:11:01 AM   
stellauk


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You know, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day how many US Supreme Court rulings you have excluding juveniles, the mentally retarded, the mentally ill or anybody else.

It doesn't really matter that you have rulings abandoning the electric chair and firing squad in favour of lethal injection.

Every time there is an execution and each and every time death is pronounced you have killed someone's child, someone's parent, someone's partner, someone's relative and that someone is left bereaved and suffering.

That someone has no relation to the crime committed. And yet they are also being punished.

Furthermore lethal injection isn't as clinical or as humane as you think.

Some states use one drug - sodium thiopental, others use two more - potassium chloride and pancurom bromide (Pavulon).

These three drugs require administration intravenously under the direct supervision of a trained clinical anaesthetologist through an IV drip.

Sodium thiopental puts someone to sleep and causes unconciousness. Pancurom bromide is a muscle relaxant which causes 'skeletal paralysis' - you cannot move because you are paralyzed. Potassium chloride is a salt.

An execution is only humane if administered correctly, where sodium thiopental causes a loss of consciousness within a minute of it being administered, the IV line is flushed after each time the drug is administered. Pancurom bromide depresses the diaphram and stops both breathing and circulation.

This is also dependent on the IV line remaining in the vein the whole time.

However the AMA has already forbidden doctors from participating in state executions. There is a shortage of sodium thiopental in the United States, so states have to purchase it elsewhere.

Therefore often there are no trained medical personnel taking part in an execution. Therefore there is nobody present who is qualified to assess the depth of unconciousness or who can identify many of the problems which can occur during the administration of drugs through an IV line.

If you have ever spent time in hospital with an intravenous drip you will probably appreciate that although this is a straightforward medical procedure it can become complicated and problematic very easily.

The thing is that the normal pH of a human body is around 7.4, and the pH of sodium thiopental is around 11. Therefore if it is administered subcutaneously not only does it cause significant burning pain, but it also fails to deliver the lethal dose in the correct manner. Something similar happens with the other drugs.

What you have then is an inmate who is paralyzed and very slowly choking to death.

And if you're prepared to accept that level of risk, you might as well execute condemned prisoners with a couple of Western diamondback rattlesnakes.

Drug abuse, drug dealing, using untrained personnel for medical prodecures, punishing people not connected to the crime - this is the reality of the death penalty as it stands today.

How can that be morally any different from what the criminals are doing?

In fact, given that most victims of murders are killed by gunshot, you can even argue that on the whole, you are more likely to suffer a humane and dignified death as a murder victim in the United States than you are as a condemned prisoner on Death Row.



_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/10/2012 9:13:12 AM   
kdsub


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I wonder how much sympathy you would expect from the parents of a nine year old child...raped...strangled...chopped into pieces and fed to the dogs. Sorry Stella...some people forfeit their right to live for their actions.

I never will forget the man who killed nine nurses…was sentenced to life in prison… then was caught raping fellow inmates at sex parties.

How about the murderers who are paroled or serve reduced sentences then get out and kill again or kill while incarcerated… should the relatives of the murdered show sympathy.

I don’t want to make this thread about the death penalty because I agree with many of the points made about the administration of the sentence in this and other threads…but …sympathy for the relatives of the murdered in some circumstances would take a saint.

All the points about mental illness and low IQ in my opinion would apply to Life without parole as well. So please take the death penalty of the board and consider my remarks applying to the life sentence instead. That way we get to the jest of my argument and take away the secondary argument of the death penalty.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/10/2012 9:14:17 AM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Executing the Mentally Ill - 8/10/2012 10:37:33 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

especially to those least able to afford the BEST attorney's money can buy!!!!



Years ago I asked a family member who was at Duke Law School if truth had any real bearing on the practice. She responded that the job of attorneys is to serve the law. I found that telling.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 80
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