RE: Why does this happen? (Full Version)

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GreedyTop -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/11/2012 1:23:11 PM)

LOL lw!! (I consider myself lucky that I have the fortune to be able to do so from afar...)




sheisreeds -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/12/2012 11:49:34 PM)

Wow, I just had a chance to catch up on this.

There is sooooo much negligence in this scene, and in the entire evening really.

Sorry the domme involved should find a new past time, she should never touch another human being again. This is so incredibly wrong on so many levels.

For anyone who said this is why I don't do wax play, needles or fire play; definitely don't until you know enough to understand how far gone this whole situation was! Keep that healthy fear, and either replace it with a huge dose of knowledge (and still a bit of fear) or don't play the game at all. A few things:

1. Topping fire, wax, or needles on the back puts extra responsibility on the dominant as the submissive has no means to see what is happening. After awhile with pain, especially in a concentrated area the bottom is not going to feel it hurt more, and perhaps not feel it at all. It is on the top to observe EVERYTHING.
2. These candles had to be lit for a LONG time. Fire that close to the skin begins to burn within 2 seconds. Add in wax dripping into the burn . . . JESUS! Just fucking stupid. There is no way any one with common sense topping this scene would have viewed this scenario as ok, or what was happening to the bottom's skin as normal.
3. I check in with myself mentally and make sure I'm prepared to be monitoring something like this. If this domme has lost her ability to do this from her brain injury (and it seems she has), she should not play at all. If she doesn't have the capacity to recognize this she should be motherfucking blacklisted.
4. If the submissive is normally this gun ho and/or haphazard as the protector she should never have been let out without the family, at the very least been required to make contact before scening with a new person, or not be allowed to scene at all. If she couldn't behave I'd not offer my services.
5. Who the fuck was running this place, and who the hell didn't flip the fuck out and stop the scene after seeing those candles that close to motherfucking skin for more than 2 seconds? Who sat back and watched the damn BBQ?
6. What dumbass for a domme doesn't stick around and help clean up and attend to any injuries? God damn! WTF?
7. Who the hell didn't notice something was terribly wrong, who let this chick get in her car and drive home? I'm also amazed the friends left her there. I'm amazed this scene didn't end with calling 911.

How the fuck does this happen? Ignorance, over confidence, stupidity, and downright negligence. It will always happen, unfortunately.




JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 12:31:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Based only on the facts presented, which admittedly is far from a complete picture, I think all involved should lose their prized One Twue Dom Union cards and be forced to attend all future play parties dressed in sparkling pink spandex, dressed like the tooth fairy.

Admittedly from my gulf of ignorance regarding SM, play, play spaces and the like, I gotta agree that pretty much every human within 200m of that scene should be barred from BDSM ... and possibly walking upright ... for life. I hadn't gotten to look at the photos till just now. Let's be clear here. I know NOTHING about this stuff... NOTHING. But in my life I have run across fire before. I know it's hot. I know that those candles run very, very close to the skin and I either wouldn't do it like that at all or they'd be on for 5 seconds to take the picture. I sure as hell would've held one over some part of my skin at approximately the right angle to get a feel for things. I'm as ignorant as I could possibly be yet I suspect I could have pulled this scene off. I know I would not have tried.

Then I gotta ask some questions about this sub and her "house".

Then I gotta ask some questions about the entire "community" which did not immediately shun the top, decide what to do about the play space and it's hosts, and make some hard calls about the "house".

To answer LP's question. It happens because the community encourages and permits it to happen. As I've gotten a fuller understanding of this whole story and how it relates to some other ongoing stories I'm coming to think of BDSM play spaces about the same as I'd think of some outback biker bar where the crips & bloods occasionally got together to shoot crystal meth and fire guns at the ceiling. My line for the week on several topics... "Sex, drugs, rock & roll, lawlessness. What could possibly go wrong?"

I think the part I don't have an answer to is "what to do about it". The illegal nature of BDSM enforces the lawlessness. The community is either unable or unwilling to shun people. From there, the rest is catastrophe. I just don't see how you're possibly going to get a bunch of thrill seekers into an environment like that and not have this stuff crop up. At least some percentage of those thrill seekers are going to be just plain idiots. In the bigger picture, it's a guaranteed fact that the vast majority of them won't measure up to the ridiculous standards that BDSM people routinely tell themselves about each other. I just don't think there is an answer other than to avoid the situation entirely.






JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 3:23:16 PM)

~fast reply~
Well how apropos. I just came across THIS in my email.

The situation in this thread happens because "the community" does not behave like this.




littlewonder -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 3:31:22 PM)

I can remember a time when the only way you could even get into a bdsm club was to be vetted by someone else who was vetted by someone else who was vetted by someone else, etc...so for the most part you didn't have just anyone who could walk off the streets to attend such place.

It's how it worked when my ex Dom and I held play parties. It was the only way someone could attend. And if you were the new vetted person, you were watched carefully throughout the night and if you didn't pass muster, you were not invited back.

Personally, I think we should return to that.




JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 3:34:29 PM)

I've heard that a lot littlewonder. And, to some extent, I agree. But I can't forget that I've heard horror & abuse stories out of BDSM land going back as far as I've found anyone to ask. Usually, when I ask an old-timer what I get is that while the more insular community and smaller size of days gone by had some advantages, there was still plenty of abusive behavior going around.

Let's be clear. Humans like to have sex. An awful lot of them will do a lot of nasty things in order to get it.

In general, I am perennially skeptical of "the golden age when women glowed and men thundered"




littlewonder -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 3:52:31 PM)

Oh I'm not saying it was perfect and that no bad ever happened. It did but the thing was that if you were someone that no one liked....you didn't have to do anything wrong except just be a moron...and you didn't get invited back. Most anything that I remember bad happening, didn't happen at play parties. It happened during the aftermath or at home or while going to meet someone at a hotel room.

Play parties were intentionally left small and insular for a reason; easier to handle problems.

These days when I go to to a bdsm club it's not any different to me than going to a nightclub or a rave. You pay an entrance fee to get in and once in it's upon you but there's the possibility that you may get bounced out for doing something illegal or you decided you wanted to harass someone while inside.




JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 4:53:15 PM)

*nods* That makes some sense.

I do think part of what's gone wrong here is that the BDSM subculture (thanks Stella) has grown dramatically but it's structures have not increased accordingly. It's like trying to run the United States the same way you'd run a tribe of 200 people.




kalikshama -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 5:26:54 PM)

quote:

The gal who topped the scene came on, put up a post, said she had brain damage and since then had "blank spots" where she couldn't account for either her behavior during those times or anything that happened in them.
Now I dunno bout you, but I'm never ever letting a gal with that condition play with anyone I care about...and I don't know what kind of "family" would encourage or teach such a person to play.


As the brain damage thing was in her profile amidst her apology, I took it as an after the fact, caught with my pants down excuse. It wasn't part of the initial narrative.




LadyPact -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 5:35:30 PM)

Jeff, I'm going to disagree with you on the part that every person within a specific area should be banned. I'm going to tell you that, if I had been at the next play station over, I'm looking at the scene that I'm conducting. Not trying to babysit. I'm not going to ignore the bottom who has put their safety in My hands so that I can watch over everybody else. That's what I do when I DM. Not when I play.

At the same time, I am full force in support of what lw is saying. In some ways, vetting is a lost art. There's a big difference between the guest list being reached by phone (or the old yahoo groups) and the open cattle call type of invitation that Fet has brought us.

I'm not a good example for this. A lot of people know Me these days so My reputation comes with Me. I really shouldn't be able to walk in and play in any and all play spaces but I do all of the time. People stopped checking out My references five or six years ago.




JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 5:42:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Jeff, I'm going to disagree with you on the part that every person within a specific area should be banned.

Agreed... that was hyperbole. But I do think I could trace several different "responsibility chains" here more than one person long and I'd be OK with banning THOSE people. What I find to be a tragedy is the idea that it's just the top's fault.... as if that actually explained anything at all or in any way helps to prevent this from happening again. In fact, despite all the hand-wringing on that thread what I saw was an utter lack of any sense of responsibility and I'm confident that there'll be more problems in the future.... all the while people patting themselves on the back and telling each other how honorable they are.




kalikshama -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 6:15:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

~fast reply~
Well how apropos. I just came across THIS in my email.

The situation in this thread happens because "the community" does not behave like this.


Good link. I'm impressed that, among other things, five board members resigned over their mishandling of the harassment issue and the concom changed the offender's two year ban to the lifetime ban as specified in their guidelines.




LadyPact -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 6:22:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

The gal who topped the scene came on, put up a post, said she had brain damage and since then had "blank spots" where she couldn't account for either her behavior during those times or anything that happened in them.
Now I dunno bout you, but I'm never ever letting a gal with that condition play with anyone I care about...and I don't know what kind of "family" would encourage or teach such a person to play.


As the brain damage thing was in her profile amidst her apology, I took it as an after the fact, caught with my pants down excuse. It wasn't part of the initial narrative.

On that one, I'm going with really dropped the ball. The person with brain damage was also a DM for the evening? That's one hell of a big WTF moment. It totally blows Me away that the organizers thought that was cool. Had I known that kind of thing, I'd have not only not let her DM, I'd have had the DM staff watching her like a hawk.

As to the family. It's not at their feet. The headed for home and the bottom wanted to stay. It's not like they could drag her out of the door against her will.




JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 6:31:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
As to the family. It's not at their feet. The headed for home and the bottom wanted to stay. It's not like they could drag her out of the door against her will.

*blinks*
*blinks again*
uh.....

Either I am still not understanding something about this situation or else I've totally got the word "family" wrong. Is this really just some loose sort of affiliation like a group of guys who get together every sunday to play chess in the park calling themselves a "family of chess players"?




LadyPact -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 6:40:05 PM)

I'd seriously have to do additional research to see how literally these folks are taking the word "family". It doesn't always necessarily mean those who belong to the same house. (Think leather family hierarchy.) You have to remember that people also use the family term for things like mentoring situations, where you give advice, but not commands. Could be a training situation or a case where the parties had both had a prior Dominant in common.





JeffBC -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 6:47:37 PM)

*nods*
*shakes head*

And you asked "why does this happen?"

I do wish to point out that even if it was a "mentoring situation" then the "mentors" bear responsibility.... a boat-load of it. I would certainly have nothing to do with anyone who "mentored" that bottom and I'd advise my friends to do the same... along with anyone who'd been mentored by those people.

This crap stops when it becomes unacceptable (note that link I posted above which is an example of how it's done right). The fact is, based upon the reactions I've seen, nobody is in fact all that concerned that this happened and it is perfectly acceptable.




Karmastic -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/13/2012 10:25:31 PM)

i can think of a hundred more stupid things people do to each other, and as far as i can discern, BDSM isn't a haven from that.




LadyPact -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/14/2012 1:02:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

*nods*
*shakes head*

And you asked "why does this happen?"

I do wish to point out that even if it was a "mentoring situation" then the "mentors" bear responsibility.... a boat-load of it. I would certainly have nothing to do with anyone who "mentored" that bottom and I'd advise my friends to do the same... along with anyone who'd been mentored by those people.

This crap stops when it becomes unacceptable (note that link I posted above which is an example of how it's done right). The fact is, based upon the reactions I've seen, nobody is in fact all that concerned that this happened and it is perfectly acceptable.

It's honestly a no win situation, Jeff. Even here on these message boards, people will rail if, heaven forbid, anybody say they have no experience and could be considered unsafe. It hurts their fragile egos.

As a mentor, Myself, when things are discussed between Me and her, I can say I think it's not a good idea. She's still her own person and could chose not to take that advice. If it happened, I couldn't force her. I can't tell her to leave the play party just because I am or forbid her from doing something I don't think she should. (Thankfully, it's never happened and she happens to be a pretty smart cookie.)

The incident did happen in a public play space. I hate to think of how often this happens in private play between folks who aren't taking safety seriously.




sheisreeds -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/14/2012 5:21:05 AM)

From what I understand the mentor was not at the party at all, however the mentor arranged for friend's of the submissive to be present. When the friend's left the submissive decided she was staying, and sometime after that this happened. The mentor had no idea this scene was intended, and was not asked or consulted before the scene was planned.

I also get the sense that the submissive does not live with her.

On the mentor calling an ambulance when the submissive refused, this can be tough. Unfortunately the submissive has the right to refuse medical care. However, I would have done it. I also would not be so welcoming or forgiving to the domme who did this. She was irresponsible in nearly every possible way, and has scarred someone for life.

I do not understand the community's response to this incident at all.

Even 4 years ago when I started playing publicly vetting was important, guests were allowed at some events, though to get the invite you had to meet the organizers. Now only one event continues to require vetting for everyone, at a lot of events the guest list has disappeared as well. So now there isn't even a way to know who is at the event!

Overtime we also got an increasing amount of flak for insisting on vetting for any kink friendly event at our house, which amazed me because it is OUR house.

The number of people doing risky play in public spaces has increased, and the number of people who came from a close knit, supportive, and risk aware culture is diminishing.




Kana -> RE: Why does this happen? (8/14/2012 8:38:55 AM)

quote:

As to the family. It's not at their feet. The headed for home and the bottom wanted to stay. It's not like they could drag her out of the door against her will.


I disagree. They taught her to play, they accepted her knowing her condition and somehow still thought that it was all hunky dory acceptable to teach her how to put people in life threatening situations. They let her use their name. They let her trade off of their reputation in doing so (As in, "trust me, I'm a member of famous family X, so I know what I'm doing." Now, I don't know if these things happened or not, but often they are implied or assumed). They basically gave a kid a gun and let the kid loose on an unsuspecting public.

Now I dunno bout you LP, but if that same gal came to me (And this is as a solo dom, not even as family head where I've assumed responsibility for those underneath) and made me aware of her condition, I would utterly refuse to teach her a thing and strongly, as in vehemently, suggest that she throw away her dream of domming and find a more appropriate less potentially lethal hobby, like gardening.

Would you have taught her how to top?

quote:

From what I understand the mentor was not at the party at all, however the mentor arranged for friend's of the submissive to be present. When the friend's left the submissive decided she was staying, and sometime after that this happened. The mentor had no idea this scene was intended, and was not asked or consulted before the scene was planned.

To quote ol Harry S-the buck stops here. You want the glamour and joy of heading a family, you also get the responsibility that goes with that. My boss gets days off. And sometimes shit goes wrong when he's not there, and guess who gets the blame from on high, takes the rap anyway?
You know it.
Why?
Because he's the man in charge. It happened on his watch...whether he was present or not he is still responsible for the actions taken in his bailiwick...and all those actions taken by a subordinate.
They taught a brain damaged person that it was OK and safe to top...and it's quite clearly not.
That's on the family head AFAIC, because they are responsible for what happens and who they take in and who they allow to use their name and reputation.
(Tricky things, reputations. They take a lifetime to build and can be demolished in 1 second of stupidity)

quote:

On the mentor calling an ambulance when the submissive refused, this can be tough. Unfortunately the submissive has the right to refuse medical care. However, I would have done it.

There would have been no option. I would have taken them to the hospital or called an ambulance-those would have been the options. And only those...
Anything else and I'm never talking to them again, they are completely cut out of my life forever.
(And trust me here, when I walk, I walk. I don't look back. I don't give redo's. There are no do-overs here. I'm gone and never coming back).
And I'm still calling the ambulance. Let the medics deal with the blithering moron.

quote:

I also would not be so welcoming or forgiving to the domme who did this. She was irresponsible in nearly every possible way, and has scarred someone for life.

Yep.
As I also hold those above her in the hierarchy equally responsible.
quote:


Even 4 years ago when I started playing publicly vetting was important

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. I can remember walking into parties in the early 80's where there was no vetting. Pay cash at the door and you're in. And from what I've heard of the wild swinging seventies, things were often even looser then at places like Hellfire...
quote:

Overtime we also got an increasing amount of flak for insisting on vetting for any kink friendly event at our house, which amazed me because it is OUR house.

You crazy wild ass woman, now you talking crazy talk, just babbling.
You mean, like respect you and yours? Damn Reeds, I always thought you were kinda rational for a chica [:-]
quote:

The number of people doing risky play in public spaces has increased, and the number of people who came from a close knit, supportive, and risk aware culture is diminishing.

Mirroring a trend that cuts across all society, not just the BDSM microcosm. Welcome to the information age. Ain't it grand?




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