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Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:19:16 AM   
SlipSlidingAway


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Hi everyone.  I have a question.  I consider myself a good communicator, an active listener, and very non-confrontational in the vast majority of situations.  I am well aware that men and women tend to have different communication styles, but I can talk to most people (guys included) just fine.  However, what do you do when you are confronted with talking to someone (male) that admits to being a lousy communicator?  Someone that comes right out and says he does not want to discuss problems, emotions, or anything that could be upsetting?  NOT talking is not an option in this case, there is much that needs to be said and discussed.  He has a history of being a loner, and readily admits to feeling he does not need much human interaction; but, is part of a family unit (by choice).  This individual will not consider counseling/mediator- or really any third party intervention, either.  I am completely at a loss.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Anyone been in a similar situation and found a way around it?

I have tried writing it out, tried limiting conversations to one specific topic (so he does not feel overwhelmed), tried to get him to pencil in some time in advance, and asked him to broach subjects with me at a time that is convenient/a time he feels open to it.  The thing is, he never is ready or willing to do so.  This is very much who he is- and who he has always been.  It's not an uncommon pattern in his family (to the point that they often joke about it amongst themselves).  And, while this is not new to me (he's been part of my life for a decade), it has become worse over time and there are now things on the table that really need to be discussed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

Edited due to typos.


< Message edited by SlipSlidingAway -- 8/9/2012 11:20:14 AM >
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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:30:45 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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You have answered your own question in the subject line. There is no way to communicate with a non-communicator.

There are many people like this. I would say most of them are male, but a fair percentage are female as well. They have gotten through life w/o having to effectively communicate, and as long as they can survive without having to change, they won't bother to try.

Will your guy bother to try for you? I wouldn't lay odds one way or another. I can make some suggestions:

Send him a very basic, simply worded, one page letter stating your need to have him communicate about important relationship matters. Let him know you have no choice but to back off from the relationship b/c of this, but you can still be friends. Make it clear you don't hate him, in fact still have feelings, you just can't act on them.

Make it excruciatingly clear what he would need to do to be able to be seen as communicating. Also, for how long. Since he could easily do this once or twice and then slide right back the second he thinks he doesn't have to.

Then stick to it. Can you do that?

Realize changing a non-communicator to someone who can communicate enough to keep a relationship going will be a work in progress. Can you live with that?



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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:35:47 AM   
LaTigresse


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I am probably not going to say what you want to hear but.......

You knew he was this way in the beginning. You accepted him as a part of your life the way he was. He is not willing to change. It's not his responsiblity to change who he is for you just because it's not working anymore.

You either keep accepting him the way he is.......or you don't. And change the nature of the relationship.

I just had a similar discussion with my daughter. I doubt her marriage is going to survive. Sadly, I am not surprised. All I can do is continually advise her to be mindful of the other family members (children) and handle the end of the relationship responsibly and with grace.

People need to stop going into relationships blind to the less than wonderful qualities, or thinking they can change that person.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:42:01 AM   
SlipSlidingAway


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Thanks so much, very sound advice.   He's more than my guy, he's my husband.  In the process of trying to figure out just want I can live with right now.  Trying to make some decisions, to figure out where to go from here.  While I could take his non-input as an answer in itself, I really don't want to give up without exploring more options with him.  He claims to want to salvage the marriage; but as of now, that's pretty much all he has said. 

Thanks again...

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:50:52 AM   
SlipSlidingAway


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I agree with you, to a degree.  Things have gotten worse as time goes by.  Think of a snowball rolling downhill.  I could live with the snowball, but with momentum, what I have right now looks nothing like what it started out with. I really had no way of foreseeing how difficult it would become to talk to him.  While it may seem that I am trying to change him, right now, all I want is to have input on things that relate to both of us.  And, since he claims to want to save the marriage, I want to try to find a way to find out what's going on in his head.

Edited to add: ...and, thank you.  I asked for advice, open to all of it, even if it's not what I'd want to hear in an ideal world.


< Message edited by SlipSlidingAway -- 8/9/2012 11:52:56 AM >

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:51:46 AM   
sexyred1


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I am like you, a great communicator and I was with someone for a very long time who said he was not. I kept trying and it was like hitting a brick wall.

I tried everything, changing the way I approached him, how I said things, etc. and nothing worked because you cannot change someone who does not want to change.

It is really that simple.

If your husband wants to salvage the relationship, he has to take some sort of action. End of story.

If you want a relationship where your partner does not communicate, you have to make that decision.

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 11:55:43 AM   
SlipSlidingAway


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Thanks, sexyred1, I know the brick wall all too well.

Maybe, part of me knows it's that simple, but really does not want it to be?  I don't know anymore.  I am so confused.  Honestly, I am not even sure that I want to save the marriage, I just feel like I have an obligation to try.  Not even sure if that would make sense to most people.

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 12:02:56 PM   
kalikshama


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When I met R, I had just spent three years in communities that taught and stressed Conscious Communication and considered myself a very good communicator. Alas, CC does not work with narcissists.

Sadly, whichever of these strategies I tried actually did work with him. We are no longer together.

http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily19.html

1. Listen attentively to everything the narcissist says and agree with it all. Don't believe a word of it but let it slide as if everything is just fine, business as usual.

2. Personally offer something absolutely unique to the narcissist which they cannot obtain anywhere else. Also be prepared to line up future sources of primary Narcissistic Supply for your narcissist because you will not be IT for very long, if at all. If you take over the procuring function for the narcissist, they become that much more dependent on you which makes it a bit tougher for them to pull their haughty stuff – an inevitability, in any case.

3. Be endlessly patient and go way out of your way to be accommodating, thus keeping the narcissistic supply flowing liberally, and keeping the peace (relatively speaking).
Be endlessly giving. This one may not be attractive to you, but it is a take it or leave it proposition.

4. Be absolutely emotionally and financially independent of the narcissist. Take what you need: the excitement and engulfment and refuse to get upset or hurt when the narcissist does or says something dumb, rude, or insensitive. Yelling back works really well but should be reserved for special occasions when you fear your narcissist may be on the verge of leaving you; the silent treatment is better as an ordinary response, but it must be carried out without any emotional content, more with the air of boredom and "I'll talk to you later, when I am good and ready, and when you are behaving in a more reasonable fashion".

5. If your narcissist is cerebral and NOT interested in having much sex – then give yourself ample permission to have "hidden" sex with other people. Your cerebral narcissist will not be indifferent to infidelity so discretion and secrecy is of paramount importance.

6. If your narcissist is somatic and you don't mind, join in on group sex encounters but make sure that you choose properly for your narcissist. They are heedless and very undiscriminating in respect of sexual partners and that can get very problematic (STDs and blackmail come to mind).

7. If you are a "fixer", then focus on fixing situations, preferably before they become "situations". Don't for one moment delude yourself that you can FIX the narcissist – it simply will not happen. Not because they are being stubborn – they just simply can't be fixed.
If there is any fixing that can be done, it is to help your narcissist become aware of their condition, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, with no negative implications or accusations in the process at all. It is like living with a physically handicapped person and being able to discuss, calmly, unemotionally, what the limitations and benefits of the handicap are and how the two of you can work with these factors, rather than trying to change them.

8. Finally, and most important of all: KNOW YOURSELF.

- What are you getting from the relationship? Are you actually a masochist? A codependent perhaps? Why is this relationship attractive and interesting?

- Define for yourself what good and beneficial things you believe you are receiving in this relationship.

- Define the things that you find harmful TO YOU. Develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself. Don't expect that you will cognitively be able to reason with the narcissist to change who they are. You may have some limited success in getting your narcissist to tone down on the really harmful behaviours THAT AFFECT YOU. This can only be accomplished in a very trusting, frank and open relationship.

FIVE DON'T DO'S

How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist

1. Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him;

2. Never offer him any intimacy;

3. Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on);

4. Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity;

5. Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: "I think you overlooked ... made a mistake here ... you don't know ... do you know ... you were not here yesterday so ... you cannot ... you should ... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom) ... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly) ..." You get the gist of it.



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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 12:15:50 PM   
SlipSlidingAway


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Thanks for that, I recognize far too much of it, actually.  Still, seeing it like that...*low whistle*.   Guess I have more to think about than I realized.  Or less.  My gut is telling me that I have over thought this for a long time, simply because I don't like the conclusions that I keep coming to.

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 12:26:52 PM   
Kana


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Everyone is a communicator. Some just can't do it with words.
Besides which, words are tricky things. They can be twisted, turned, made to dance.
I watch peoples feet. They tell me the truth about them. Every time.
Watch what they do. Not what they say. And the doing, that's their communication...and it's the most honest one there is.

< Message edited by Kana -- 8/9/2012 12:27:03 PM >


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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 12:34:11 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Watch what they do. Not what they say. And the doing, that's their communication...and it's the most honest one there is.


Absolutely.

OP - first the 5 or 6 times I tried to leave R he promised me the world but his actions never matched his words.

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 12:52:11 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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This, every word. Quoted b/c it does bear repeating.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Everyone is a communicator. Some just can't do it with words.
Besides which, words are tricky things. They can be twisted, turned, made to dance.
I watch peoples feet. They tell me the truth about them. Every time.
Watch what they do. Not what they say. And the doing, that's their communication...and it's the most honest one there is.



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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 1:01:59 PM   
sexyred1


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That is the problem with most non communicators. They are either narcissists or have some other dysfunction.

The 5 Don't Do's for a Narcissist are really scary. I say there is only 1 do: get away from a narcissist. Arguing with one just does not work. Logic does not work. Empathy is lacking in them, so asking for understanding or compassion does not work.

Most important, a narcissist is also a manipulator, so no matter what you do or say, they can flip it around to make it about them and they always assign blame to the other person, never taking ownership.

Whenever I tried to talk to my ex about something he did, he would always say one of two things that infuriated me:

YOU made me act this way by _____________fill in the blank.

You know how I am, you have been with me long enough, stop asking me to change.

And that second one is true.

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 1:33:43 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

stop asking me to change.


That's the one you have to own.

Claiming to love someone and yet expecting them to change in a fundamental way has very little likelyhood of working.

It took me way too long to get that with the ex husband, but I did finally. It's a hard thing to accept, but there is no way to make people change, even if you really, really want them to.



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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 1:39:39 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I've always said "you can change your behaviour but you can't change your SELF". I can meet deadlines time after time, but I am still bone idle. A person who is a narcissist? Give it up, no changing there. Me, I would run like hell, having been in that pit.

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 1:42:32 PM   
SlipSlidingAway


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Kana, you are a pretty smart guy.  Again, I have not seen the forest for the trees.  Think I might just make a cross-stitch out of that bit of advice!  (too many words for a tattoo lol)

As for asking him to change, I really have tried to avoid going there.  Or so I thought.  I guess, though, frustration has me doing just that without even realizing it's what I have been asking of him. 

Thanks again, to all of you.  Still not going to be easy, but I have a bit clearer picture of things than I did a few hours ago.  

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 1:48:08 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

quote:

stop asking me to change.


That's the one you have to own.

Claiming to love someone and yet expecting them to change in a fundamental way has very little likelyhood of working.

It took me way too long to get that with the ex husband, but I did finally. It's a hard thing to accept, but there is no way to make people change, even if you really, really want them to.




Just to clarify my statement, I fell in love with someone who acted in one way and then revealed later he was a different person. He communicated more at the beginning because it suited him to.

I was not expecting him to change; it was more that when I attempted to break up with a million times, he would always beg me to give him another chance. I was explicit about what I expected at MINIMUM and that was to be honest, have an open dialogue and have his actions reflect his words.

So when he failed at all that and I would bring that up, he said I was trying to change him. It was he who always claimed to want to change, but whenever faced with anything that he could easily change (like please call if you will be late or please give me notice that you want to come over) he got angry instead.

Also, part of being a couple is learning from each other. I was older than him so even a benign thing would tick him off. For example: if a movie I liked was on and I asked him if he ever saw it, he would not just say no, he would scream at me for making him feel like an idiot when all I did was say, Hey babe, this is great movie, did you ever see it?

He was insecure and negative and selfish, so everything that a narcissist reacts to is filtered through their own distorted lens, not how it was said or the intent.

And yeah, I know better now than to ever try and help anyone I am with be a better person. It has to come from within. I take full ownership for staying with such an asshole for so long, believe me.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 8/9/2012 1:50:28 PM >

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 4:52:49 PM   
stellauk


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I admit that I've been keeping an eye on this thread to see how it develops.

I agree totally with Kana here, everybody communicates.

It's important to remember that when it comes to communication talking and listening is just the tip of the iceberg and probably accounts for no more than 30-40% of what is being communicated. The rest is made up from non-verbal cues, body language, facial expression, gestures, actions, attitudes and what we project constantly out from us - vibes.

Now bear in mind that we're talking here about a relationship or marriage that is in some difficulty. I'm assuming that for both concerned this is likely to be a stressful, difficult situation.

When we are in a difficult or stressful situation the way we communicate and interact becomes important and we often respond in ways which come naturally to us. Some people need to open up and talk about things with others to process things emotionally so that they can internalize it and understand, and others do the opposite. They need to internalize things and think about them first before they can talk about them.

This is what I'm getting from the OP. I'm not prepared to call the guy a narcissist based on what has been presented in this thread so far, nor do I think he's a lousy communicator. Just because someone doesn't communicate things in ways you expect doesn't make them a lousy communicator. It just makes them different.

Besides an essential part of effective communication is having an open mind.

The other thing is, we form our general strategies for communication and relationships with others fairly early in childhood and they become a fundamental part of our nature.

Thing is, as this is an fundamental part of someone's nature, and the ability to communicate effectively in all situations is essential to sustain any sort of relationship, on what basis did both of you decide to get married?

You could try and change it and I wish you luck, but you are up against something formed in childhood and developed with a lot of life experience. The odds are slim to none and I guess slim is nowhere to be seen.

You either accept him for who he is (and he does the same for you) or you don't. This is something which needed to happen early in the relationship rather than after the wedding. But I guess you both know that now.

However reaching an agreement with someone is largely a matter of willpower and effort. It just depends on how much you need that agreement and what you are prepared to do to get it.

Do you really want to save your marriage? Is it really that important to you? If it is then I guess it's time you both start showing it.

In case there's any doubt this posting applies just as much to him as it does to you. You both came into this situation of your own free will, you are equally responsible for this situation from what I can see.


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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 5:38:18 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Just to clarify my statement, I fell in love with someone who acted in one way and then revealed later he was a different person. He communicated more at the beginning because it suited him to.

I was not expecting him to change; it was more that when I attempted to break up with a million times, he would always beg me to give him another chance. I was explicit about what I expected at MINIMUM and that was to be honest, have an open dialogue and have his actions reflect his words.

So when he failed at all that and I would bring that up

[snip]

I take full ownership for staying with such an asshole for so long, believe me.


THIS!

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RE: Communicating with a non-communicator... - 8/9/2012 5:41:03 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I'm not prepared to call the guy a narcissist based on what has been presented in this thread so far


Nor am I. The OP reminded me of my situation, which happened to be with a narcissist.

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