Culture of Victimhood (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 10:52:39 AM)

OK, so I was reading last night on Fet and I squicked myself out. No... it wasn't another one of Lupa & Lyonslayer's beating her ass with a cheese grater photos (and for the record, you folks really have corrupted me because those photos just make me laugh). I haven't quite figured out what I want to write about this so I'm just going to toss it out to you folks -- some of whom actually DO do this stuff.

https://fetlife.com/explore/#/users/16981/posts/671235

Thoughts?

Edited to serve poise more fully
Okay, there's a 600lb gorilla in the room, and I'm done pretending it's not there. What we do isn't pretty or politically correct, and frankly, it's dangerous if we can't get (and stay) honest about the reality of it. So here it is as raw and real and un-PC as it is:

There is a cult of victimhood building in the scene. It's being cultivated and nurtured in the name of something I don't believe the originators ever intended their catchy phrase to stand for. Its endgame is dangerous for everybody involved, physically, emotionally, socially, and legally...and it's going to harm us all if it isn't nipped in the bud, right fucking now.

For consent to count...ASSENT has to matter.

What we do is VOLUNTARY. It's not assault, battery or rape in any moral sense of the word, regardless of what the laws that were meant to protect people against involuntary harm actually say. We have message boards, clubs, businesses, parties and social groups where people come and ask, sometimes beg and plead, for others to hit, kick, scratch, burn, shock, bleed, humiliate, degrade, subjugate, frighten, outrage, piss on, piss off, and/or make them cry. Not because they are helpless victims, but because it sexually gratifies them to participate in those things. And there are people who agree to do it...want to do it...love to do all of those Terrible Horrible Very Nasty Things. Not because they are predatory assholes, but because it sexually gratifies them, too. And every one of those reputable organizations, and the ones that exist to protect them, insist on two things above all others: You must be an adult. You must be consenting.

And that applies to BOTH (or all) of you, dammit.

We can pretend whatever we want to in the confines of that emotional, theatrical, energetic bubble that is our "scene", whether it's for an hour or most of our 24/7 life. But the reality of the situation is that we are free, sentient, competent adults with a responsibility to take care of OURSELVES. If you're not, get out of the pool. Go home. You're not old enough or competent enough to play here. The roller coaster might look like fun, and it is, but if you aren't tall enough to ride this ride, nobody wants you on it...because when you fall out and get harmed, it not only hurts you, it closes down the ride for the rest of us.

I've been following an epic thread on consent for months now, watching sadly as many of the comments devolve into dangerously magical thinking and wishing somebody would speak up, and say "Whoa. There's a point at which personal responsibility comes into play here." It took far too long. I waited longer than I should have. I said nothing at first because I respected the poster. Then because it was Sexual Assault Awareness month. Then because I was busy. And finally realized, I just didn't really want to be the lightening rod for the reflexive push-back that would follow, when I called bullshit on the parts of it that were batshit Pollyanna craziness. But hey, there's more than one way people can get hurt in this game, and somebody has to stand up. I've been on both sides of this ride, and I'm out of patience with the silence, so today, it's me:

Being a top in this game is dangerous. Publicly, privately, with new partners or old. Being the one who does the Terrible Horrible Very Bad Things puts you in an untenable position that you cannot defend legally or morally no matter how many times they asked you to do it. As soon as somebody says "Oh, I changed my mind, I didn't want that after all," you are the one facing accusations of rape, boundary violations, incompetence, or predatory behavior. And it doesn't matter how careful you were, or how ethical you were, or how well you think you negotiated. You stay in this game for more than a couple years, you're gonna live through it whether you want to or not. Ask the biggest, baddest, kindest, most skilled, reputable and ethical tops of either gender that you know. Every single one of them has a story. Or two or three.

There are predators and crazies of all genders and every BDSM persuasion in this game. And yes, those poor tender delicate flowers of submission, slavery and painsluttery are more often than anybody talks about...dangerous, and occasionally, actually predatory. Some are crazy. Some are just uneducated or immature. But the thing the dangerous ones have in common sounds a lot like this:

"I didn't tell you, and you didn't know, and I didn't say anything while it was happening, but what you did I didn't want, and you should have known that, even though I was saying you could, because well...it's your responsibility to know better than I do what I want. And besides...I was in subspace/headspace/dissociated/whatever the fuck...and wasn't in my right mind when I said you could. So...I didn't really consent to that."

I can't say this clearly enough:

If you go to a place when you play that makes you incompetent to give or revoke consent, you have a disability that makes you a danger to yourself and to the people you play with. And if you're going to play this game AT ALL, you have a responsibility to choose your partners VERY carefully, disclose that problem UP FRONT, and negotiate truthfully, intelligently and with major self-awareness around it.

Because I've got news for those of you that think that "bottoms" can't do or consent to this or that or the other inside of a scene...a whole fucking bunch of us can. And do. And those of you that can't or won't, and still ask for pick-up play with people you barely know, are the worst nightmare of every top on the planet. Especially if your version of negotiation sounds a lot like "oh, um...you're hot...and I've heard good things about you...and oh, um...you know...whatever you want to do, I guess. I like [whatever it is that you do]."

Whether or not you want to live in that fantasy for yourself...or yell at me for calling you on it...keep this in mind: If you sell the notion that bottoming takes everybody to a place where consent is impossible...then ALL the work being done to make what we do legal and defensible and give us CHOICE is for naught. If we aren't competent to consent or withdraw consent once play starts, then everything we do will always be criminal, for our own protection. You can't have it both ways.

I know a couple that speak, teach and demonstrate some of the heaviest fear, humiliation & taboo play out there...they play deep in emotion all the time...and every time I've heard them speak or seen anything they've written for the last several years, I hear the bottom in that couple pleading for people to hear and understand: TOPS ARE NOT MINDREADERS. Her husband nods. But she's so frustrated you can almost hear her scream. It's a cry in the darkness I hear over and over, from tops, and from their partners, of either persuasion, and a whole bunch of bottoms who gag at being lumped in that "helpless subbie victim" category. Most of us are good with body language, with nuances of energy and emotion...some aren't. But NONE of us are mind-readers. And when you tell us things are good, when you ask for what you want, when you use words that are understandable and in plain English, and then tell us later that's not what you MEANT and we were supposed to KNOW that...we are helpless to respond. Because it's NOT RATIONAL.

Physical and emotional landmines happen. Endorphins and adrenaline allow things that the rational mind isn't comfortable with. We ALL wake up the next day sometimes thinking "What the FUCK was I thinking when I did/allowed/asked for that??" Or with more marks or bruises or embarrassment or physical or emotional hurt than we wanted, for ourselves or our partners. Sometimes it takes months to untangle whatever knots we surfaced. Sometimes we trigger stuff that needs therapy, or even medical treatment. Sometimes we do it on purpose, sometimes we don't. Shit happens, and often it's nobody's fault...unless you knew that shit was there, and didn't disclose it.

But when you wake up the next day and think to yourself: "Wow. I'm not comfortable with how far that went." Ask yourself what you actually did or said. Ask your partner what you did or said. Ask bystanders what you did or said. And own your part in it. Because whatever you were thinking...if you actually held the conversation and all the responses entirely in your head...you can't hold someone else responsible for what you didn't say or do here on the planet where the rest of us are. And if you couldn't possibly have predicted the outcome, how rational is it for you to expect that your partner should have?

Safewords exist for a reason. Plain English exists for a reason. All those classes on negotiation exist for a reason. Read the book The Gift of Fear (Gavin de Becker) and learn not just what a real predator looks like...but where YOUR responsibility to recognize the obvious signs and protect yourself begins. Find your emotional power to recognize and say "no" to what you don't want BEFORE you get naked and tied up and give up your actual physical power to walk away to anybody. And if you find, after the fact, that you don't have a voice in that situation...get one. Therapy and education and finding your own power will serve you far better in this life than setting yourself up for perpetual victimhood again and again, and wondering why it keeps happening to YOU.

Because your consent DOES count. And when you give it...you have a responsibility to give it honestly, and to expect to be taken at your word. And when you withdraw it, which you have a perfect right to do at any time, you have responsibility to communicate it clearly, and to act on it. Anything else puts you and everybody you play with at risk. Once you've done THAT, there's no excuse and no apology for anybody violating it. But until you do...it's magical and dangerous thinking to believe that someone else is going to "know" what you want, and do it, despite what you say or don't say. In fact, somebody who would discount your communication that way, is far more dangerous than someone who takes you at your word, as a competent, sentient adult, who has decided for yourself that you're big enough to be on this strange and wonderful ride.

Now somebody get that gorilla a banana. We've been ignoring it for far too long.




poise -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 10:56:04 AM)

I think it's unfortunate that I am unable to participate in this thread, as I don't have a Fet account.
I do like cheese though, if that helps?
*just not parcheesi*




MissToYouRedux -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 10:59:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

I think it's unfortunate that I am unable to participate in this thread, as I don't have a Fet account.
I do like cheese though, if that helps?
*just not parcheesi*


Yes, I often feel that way. lol But I tried it and didn't like it... Fet that is, not cheese. ;)




LaTigresse -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:00:24 AM)

So some woman went on a bit of a rant. What part of it actually squicked you out???




OttersSwim -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:03:35 AM)

I personally agree with most of what was said. I am not a victim in my life. I make my own choices, AND have selected someone whom I trust to make choices on my behalf when I cannot make my own choices (or choose not too). Were that person to ever err, what happened would be MY responsibility as much as it would be Hers.

I am where I am today because of the choices I have made for good or for ill.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:06:29 AM)

Have you been following that clusterfuck at all, Jeff? Because this lady's commentary is not all that unusual as far as such things go. There is the IF YOU DON'T GO TO THE POLICE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT camp, the ALL WOMEN ARE LYING LIARS WHO LIE camp, the ALL MEN ARE EBIL EBIL PIGGY PREDATORS camp, etc.

And I enjoy both cheese, and Parcheesi.




OttersSwim -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:11:44 AM)

Wait, did I read the right link? Thought her post was about taking personal responsibility for your actions?




LaTigresse -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:19:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Wait, did I read the right link? Thought her post was about taking personal responsibility for your actions?


That's pretty much what I got, when I skimmed it, as well.




MariaB -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:26:28 AM)

I think its very well written and easy to read and digest. I agree with everything she has said.

Thanks for posting the link Jeff.




Kana -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:34:11 AM)

Whatcha got against cheese graters? I was using one at Playhouse a few weeks ago and this chick actually was dying laughing.
Chortles.
The mouse don't find em so funny though-those fuckers can do a number on skin.

That said, I give you Mr Don Henley's views...

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work; you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass"






LaTigresse -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:36:12 AM)

Love it!




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:37:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Wait, did I read the right link? Thought her post was about taking personal responsibility for your actions?


That's pretty much what I got, when I skimmed it, as well.



Yes, it was. One of many on Fetl. Hence the various factions/camps, since this issue has gotten about as polarized as it's likely to.




Whenready -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:44:13 AM)

I'm not involved in "the scene". Last time I was, my local scene was full of wannabees, drama queens and more bitching than a catfight. Suffice to say it wasn't a good experience, and I haven't been back for years.

However, the gorilla has a cousin: the orang utan. So when I've been involved with someone else, I've been as careful as I can be to outline responsibilities, and I've made sure that my safeword is understood, and engineered a scene to make sure it is used, so that she KNOWS that it's not a problem to use it, and that it works. Even so, once I made an error of character judgement that could have left me open to a range of accusations. I'm not perfect. You're not perfect, and we make mistakes. Because of what we do, those mistakes can be costly in all sorts of ways.

And if I get any sense that she is NOT taking responsibility too, I walk. It ain't rocket science.




littlewonder -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:52:12 AM)

I'm with the op. Take responsibility for yourself. It's not the other person's fault that they went too far. You have a brain and a voice. Use it. Unfortunately I see this alllll the time, not just on bdsm sites but all sites online and in real life.

It's part of the society in which we live. Blame your boss for firing you when you were not doing your job. Blame the bank because you didn't have sufficient funds. Blame your partner because your relationship is shitty, etc....





Celticgerman -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:53:19 AM)

I've been around that basic situation before. Crap communication from those who cannot or will not clearly outline what they want/need or where the lines are. It's gets so old so fast and being called "villan" by those who are one-side minded. The world encourages anymore that people not communicate clearly. Men are often seen as not being clear about needs, but the truth is women are really not much better. I have always spoken from the heart, I have found it better to be truthful and not worry about folks getting mad about it. Often times, folks on both sides get mad whichever way you turn.

Good communication skills could have prevented some of our worst conflicts and wars. It has also prevented others. It's amazing how much power there is in just being clear and truthful. It is something I hold as a cornerstone of my interactions. Yet so many forget something so simple. Mean what you say and say what you mean. It's not a complex thing. If you won't be clear about what you want, can you really blame anyone for your need/want not getting met? When you are clear and things still don't work, who is to blame?

Sun-zu states: if the order is not clear, and is not followed, it is the commander at fault. If the order is clear and still not followed, it is the subordinate at fault.

One of his most basic rules, demonstrated and proven in a story with his emperor's concubine women.

Take responsibility for your actions and your own happiness. Own the mistakes and learn from them.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:56:05 AM)

That's actually not what the consent discussions have been about, LW.

Here's an example, from REAL LIFE (tm). Two people are playing, he is a known entity, event organizer kind of guy. She is tripping away in whatever dimension you subspacers go, and while she is there, he decides HEY! Imma stick my hand where she SAID I shouldn't put it!! Trauma ensues. Who is at fault? Is it her, for "going into subspace"? Is it him, for just ignoring their negotiations? Is it her, for thinking that she could trust him?

Etc. Ad infinitum. No means no, but what do you do when you don't have the wherewithal to say no? What if you CHANGE YOUR MIND?

It's been a fucking minefield.

Did you know that sticking your hand in someone's cooter when they are tied up and cannot protest IS NOT RAPE? Yep.

Damn, I love Detroit. [8|]




JeffBC -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:57:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Have you been following that clusterfuck at all, Jeff?

Well.. not till last night. Last night I read up on "that whole clusterfuck" and oh yeah ain't that the truth? I mean... I loosely knew about the individual pieces but then I read a posting on K&P which put it all together for me and well yeah... each individual piece is a clusterfuck and I think we need a new word to really encapsulate the totality of it.

@LaT
As I've woken up more and had a bit more time to reflect, what I think happened is that I'd seen this stuff all before.. remarked on it... thought it was toxic but basically not something in my sphere anyway and moved on. I think reading that posting was like a flashback and it hit me extra-strong because it was late/early when read. The specific answer to your questions:

Cult of Victimhood: Yup, I don't need anyone training Carol to be a victim.
Lack of Personal Responsibility: Nope, I don't need any victims getting their victim fetish satisfied by me.

In the end though, it remains true that so long as I remain distanced from "the community" then neither myself or Carol is imperiled by it.




littlewonder -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 11:58:40 AM)

Maybe it's just me but even when I'm in subspace, I can still tell a person to stop or to walk away. Yeah, I may not be able to form words but I could at least push his hands away. Even though my legs may be a bit wobbly, I can still stand up and walk away.

Sorry, but I don't think subspace is an excuse for responsibility.

And imo if you play casually with someone that you don't know then yeah....that's part of your responsibility too. It's the same as when you go to a bar and pick up a guy. You don't know the guy from Adam, you're lucky if you even know his name. You decide to leave with him and he does something you didn't want then again, that's on you for not being responsible.

When I was single and casually dating, I took chances and fucked guys who I didn't even know their name. BUT even though I was drunk, I was still to blame for doing stupid stuff. I never blamed the guy.

If I played casually, which I've never done, and some guy tied me up and I just met him 5 minutes ago at the play party, again, it's on me.





OttersSwim -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 12:00:23 PM)

If it were me that happened to, I would certainly feel that I should have selected my partner more carefully, AND I would absolutely hold the top accountable for his actions too.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/10/2012 12:01:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Maybe it's just me but even when I'm in subspace, I can still tell a person to stop or to walk away. Yeah, I may not be able to form words but I could at least push his hands away. Even though my legs may be a bit wobbly, I can still stand up and walk away.

Sorry, but I don't think subspace is an excuse for responsibility.



Me neither, honestly, though I have seen enough people in subspace utterly incapacitated. In the incident in question, the lady was tied up and saying NO STOP, and similar. Which he happily ignored because COOTER.

Anyway, the point of the consent discussions is that "no" is being ignored way too much, and if NO and STOP and GET AWAY FROM ME are not being heard, and the person tries to report and is silenced and shamed, what's the solution?




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