RE: Culture of Victimhood (Full Version)

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stellauk -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/13/2012 4:00:57 PM)

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This is something which isn't just peculiar to this subculture (I refuse to use the terms 'lifestyle' or 'community' because I see this in itself is part of the issue) but is something which is prevalent right through society.

You can argue whichever way you like, whether it's social programming that's conditioning people or people themselves who are submitting to the social programming themselves, but we are living among people for whom profit, personal gain and personal gratification are the holy grail of living, the 'me first' culture and strategy of relationships and social interactions. This is where it starts.

'I think, therefore I am' has somewhat been replaced by 'I want/need, therefore I'm entitled.' But you know the thing about this sense of entitlement is that it comes with a shift in the sense of responsibility from the self to others.

This is compounded by people thinking in stereotypes. We like to think that social misfits are somewhat dysfunctional and living safely in their parents' basement, but the truth is that there are just as many social misfits raising kids, holding down decent jobs, and being part of families. These are people who spend their lives commuting from home to the office and back, there's not much free time and what free time there is is spent online looking for that real time experience just like what they've come across on some porn site.

And when all that time is used up some resort to furtive checks online at work when nobody's looking.

We see it here all the time, and it happens time after time after time after time after time, doesn't it? The minute a thread whining about fakes drops off the page up pops another one warning us all about Internet scammers or whining about some other obstacle which is perceived to be standing between these people and getting what they feel they're entitled to. How many times do they come out with the demand that Collarme should do something about it?

Meanwhile on the other side there appears to be something which could be described as The Rebirth of Neanderthal Man. This is a free site, lots of space for photos, to write whatever you want, however much you want, and you can even record yourself, video yourself, and it's all there to make contact. All you need to be able to do is string a few coherent sentences together and strike up a conversation online.

But you get messages with random words thrown together, sentences which look promising at the start but which peter out quicker than a cheap firework, messages that bear more of a relationship to science fiction than kinky reality, nothing which really connects.

It's not just about being a victim. I actually believe it's okay to be a victim every once in a while and get dumped by someone or circumstances fair and square on your backside. It's educational, it's character building, it's probably the most efficient way of teaching you to challenge your own assumptions and pointing out that yes, you too can be stupid.

But usually once you've given your ego a bit of a massage, got up and dusted yourself off usually you move on. But I don't think this is really just about people playing the victim card either.

This is also about people who set themselves up to fail by not developing the necessary skillset of social and interpersonal skills necessary to get you through WIITWD to where you want to and need to be. Without those skills you just don't develop the effective communication skills necessary, nor the ability to identify and interpret non-verbal and emotional cues, nor any awareness or knowledge of how to respond to such cues in an appropriate manner.

It's not because we enjoy reading our own words in print or listening to the sound of our own voices that the more experienced among us are constantly saying get out there, switch off the computer, go out and meet people, go to munches, get yourself off to events. This is where you learn not just the practical skills and techniques to be able to do what is it that you do, but it's also to learn the social skills to be able to handle yourself when you're doing what it is that you do.

You know you can have all the safe words, limits, protocols and whatever else but there really is no substitute for knowing the mind of whoever it is you are playing with.




crazyml -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/13/2012 4:47:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Here's an example, from REAL LIFE (tm). Two people are playing, he is a known entity, event organizer kind of guy. She is tripping away in whatever dimension you subspacers go, and while she is there, he decides HEY! Imma stick my hand where she SAID I shouldn't put it!! Trauma ensues. Who is at fault? Is it her, for "going into subspace"? Is it him, for just ignoring their negotiations? Is it her, for thinking that she could trust him?

Etc. Ad infinitum. No means no, but what do you do when you don't have the wherewithal to say no? What if you CHANGE YOUR MIND?

It's been a fucking minefield.

Did you know that sticking your hand in someone's cooter when they are tied up and cannot protest IS NOT RAPE? Yep.

Damn, I love Detroit. [8|]


In the case you describe - the dude doing something while the person was unable to consent or otherwise, AFTER consent had been expressly denied is very clearly sexual assault.

Drama shouldn't have ensued - Prison should have ensued.




JeffBC -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/13/2012 4:51:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Drama shouldn't have ensued - Prison should have ensued.

This is where the extra-legal nature of it comes into play. Of course, even in the vanilla world tragically few such cases are even reported largely because the system doesn't really work out well for the victim. In my ponderings on this whole matter one of the things I came to is that that's a cornerstone to the whole problem in the US. If I really wanted to protect the subs I'd be lobbying to make BDSM legal AND to overhaul how sexual crimes are handled stem to stern.




crazyml -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/13/2012 4:59:47 PM)

I suppose we need to be clear on what we mean by "Make BDSM legal". A lot of it is perfectly legal already. There are laws around assault etc that need to be modernised in the light of consent, but a good chunk of what I get up to is certainly not illegal, as long as she consents.

And yes, there are genuine minefield issues surrounding interpretation of consent, when do you "push" etc etc. But... if someone has previously said "no" and they're now in subspace.... you'd have to be exceedingly confident, or fucking stupid, to presume consent. The Law certainly would not.




kalikshama -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/13/2012 5:01:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

I'm tired of people taking consent to the extreme limit. Saw an FL post with a girl losing her shit because someone touched her neck without permission.



If this is a big public thread, please provide a link.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/14/2012 6:07:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

I'm tired of people taking consent to the extreme limit. Saw an FL post with a girl losing her shit because someone touched her neck without permission.



If this is a big public thread, please provide a link.



Well, I didn't see the thread myself and would like to see a link too. In general touching somebody without permission is frowned upon, if you wouldn't do it in a vanilla setting, don't do it in a BDSM environment.

So in case some idiot thinks it's OK to go to a girl he doesn't know and grab her neck and she does lose it, she would be well within her rights, by being in a BDSM environment you don't give consent to everyone and sundry to touch you. The guys who think she overreacted - how would you react if a man would do the same to you, touch your neck without permission? I'm pretty sure that the very heterosexual guys would also not like it.

Apart from that, you don't have a clue if there is a trust issue there. Seriously, a stranger coming up to me and touching my neck, you can be pretty sure that he'd get an earful about what's going to happen to his fingers if he doesn't remove them NOW! If it was in a scene and she said she is not comfortable with having her neck touched, don't do it, and the guy still does it, he's crossing borders, simple as that.

Just because it is a BDSM environment doesn't mean you have to check your manners with your coat, there is an etiquette there and if you didn't familiarize yourself with what is OK and what is not OK, you got nobody else to blame but yourself, and the general etiquette in BDSM environments is "DON'T TOUCH WITHOUT PERMISSION!" If you can't play by the rules, you have no right to be there, and if a submissive is OK by being touched by person A, B or C, it doesn't mean the submissive is OK with being touched by YOU or every Dick, Tom and Harry...




Andalusite -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/16/2012 10:27:26 PM)

When I get sub-spacy, sometimes I can't say red, or no, or my own name. When I negotiate with someone I'm planning to play with, I mention this, and ask that they give me something to use to get their attention with if I can't speak, and essentially treat me as though I were gagged. Usually we've used a set of keys, but anything that can get their attention/make noise can work.

I've had people try to do things that I had specifically mentioned ahead of time were off the table for casual play, or I wasn't ready for (but weren't necessarily hard limits in general). I had to stop play a couple of times, but usually they backed off when I got defensive about it. I opted not to play with them again, since I felt I couldn't trust them to abide by pre-negotiated boundaries, and was worried I might not be able to fend them off as effectively if I were more deeply immersed in it.




MyWay1954 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/17/2012 3:13:38 PM)

Seems to me the Victim mentality has pervaded life and society in general today.

NOTHING is my fault.





RedMagic1 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/17/2012 4:03:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1


quote:

ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity
You are only a victim if you choose to be.

This statement is false, though it is often uttered by internet "therapists" who have no idea what they are talking about. If you really need me to, I will post links, but seriously, come on. There's a high probability that the readership of kink message boards contains a larger percentage of survivors of childhood sexual abuse than the general population. So next time, you might want to check yourself before you post something else that says "fuck you" to a large section of the CollarChat readership.



Oh I dunno...having been regularly molested as a child and raped as an adult, I can tell you that "victimhood" is a chosen state of mind. You might find that patronizing but I've found it liberating. Thank God I can choose to move forward rather than remaining in the victimized past. It really is a choice. It just takes a bit of work to get to the place to see it.

I haven't read most of this thread, but I skimmed and saw yours, so I wanted to reply to it. Maybe others have made similar comments as yours, I don't know.

There's a fundamental difference between what you're describing and how SacredDepravity used that phrase. You're talking about yourself at the end of a process (or really at one plateau, it never ends). That same phrase can also be used as a club, much like "Get over it," for people in the middle of the mess. In particular, SacredDepravity's post used it in the context of a snapshot, rather than a process. Paraphrase: "There are no victims in the bedroom." Well, hell yeah there can be at any moment in time. Growing through and beyond victimization takes work, as you say, and it is glib to talk otherwise, and even can make people feel ashamed of the "I've been victimized" feelings they are feeling. I've certainly seen that happen.

That misuse of the phrase is common -- applying it to a moment in time, rather than to a person growing over time -- and that is why I said it is often misused by people who don't know what they are talking about. Used incorrectly, it can be victim-shaming, the opposite of helpful.




NuevaVida -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/17/2012 5:41:44 PM)

RedMagic1 I agree with you. I can't find where I posted it now, but in one of my more recent posts about victimhood I said people when people are violated they are victimized. And it can take some time to get through that victimazation - recovery is different for everyone. It can take a day, week, month or even years. I totally understand being and feeling victimized. But ultimately, it really is a choice to move beyond it...or not.

So in that context, SacredDepravity is also correct - or perhaps rephrasing it to remaining a victim is a choice would be more accurate.

I agree there's a lot of shaming victims going on around these parts. I neither agree with that nor do I like it.




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