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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/12/2012 10:11:36 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity
You are only a victim if you choose to be.

This statement is false, though it is often uttered by internet "therapists" who have no idea what they are talking about. If you really need me to, I will post links, but seriously, come on. There's a high probability that the readership of kink message boards contains a larger percentage of survivors of childhood sexual abuse than the general population. So next time, you might want to check yourself before you post something else that says "fuck you" to a large section of the CollarChat readership.

Oh I dunno...having been regularly molested as a child and raped as an adult, I can tell you that "victimhood" is a chosen state of mind. You might find that patronizing but I've found it liberating. Thank God I can choose to move forward rather than remaining in the victimized past. It really is a choice. It just takes a bit of work to get to the place to see it.

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Post #: 141

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/12/2012 10:34:12 PM

littlewonder

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I like to label myself as a survivor, not a victim. I detest being thought of as some pathetic, helpless, fucked up soul.

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Post #: 142

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/12/2012 10:39:42 PM

NuevaVida

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See and I don't even label myself as a survivor anymore. I'm just a woman with a bunch of life experiences, who used those experiences for good, and who is now enjoying the hell out of life.

The past is past. I'm in the present, looking forward.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

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Post #: 143

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/12/2012 11:16:41 PM

Whiplashsmile4

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In General, Our society has a culture of victimhood going on. Shocker ain't it that it would find it way past the Gates into BDSM land.

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Post #: 144

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 12:00:33 AM

sheisreeds

Posts: 578
Joined: 7/8/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity
You are only a victim if you choose to be.

This statement is false, though it is often uttered by internet "therapists" who have no idea what they are talking about. If you really need me to, I will post links, but seriously, come on. There's a high probability that the readership of kink message boards contains a larger percentage of survivors of childhood sexual abuse than the general population. So next time, you might want to check yourself before you post something else that says "fuck you" to a large section of the CollarChat readership.

It isn't just internet therapist bullshit. That being said recognizing that how you perceive yourself and the trauma is a choice, and teaching the body and the emotions to follow the thought is a process. Recovery for the victim actually REQUIRES making this choice, this is where healing happens. I don't think anyone is saying that for a woman who's just been raped, or for someone who has been through chronic trauma that this is an easy choice, though that doesn't change it's importance or the fact that the choice exists.

I say on the job all the time, "You didn't create the burden, it isn't your fault, though only you can resolve it." We also don't think and feel with the same part of the brain. Our emotions come from a much older system that do not understand logic or language. Knowing you're not a victim, and knowing it's not your fault is easy. Feeling it is a process, and hard work.

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 145

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 6:18:51 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I like to label myself as a survivor, not a victim. I detest being thought of as some pathetic, helpless, fucked up soul.

Why is a victim a pathetic, helpless, fucked up soul?

Years ago while working in LA, I was robbed at gun point, I felt very much a victim, doesn't mean I was pathetic or fucked up, but yeah, I was pretty helpless because what should I have done? Show that I am not a victim and refuse to hand over my stuff and get killed because I didn't want to be victimized? Seemed a bit counter productive at the time, actually still does. I still maintain I was a victim, wrong time and wrong place, tough luck, shit happens, it throws you. Doesn't mean that I don't go out anymore, but I also don't beat myself up about it, because there wasn't anything I could have done to avoid it, it was a case of bad luck, luckily nothing worse happened. At the time being I was beating myself up why I had all my cash, credit cards and laptop with me and my passport, I should have left it in the cheap hostel I was staying, a friend talked some sense into me, I was just a week in town, hunting for a place to rent, taking a break from work to look at a place - I wasn't aware that the neighbourhood was not exactly secure, shit happens, luckily I wasn't killed, beaten up or raped, I just had the bad luck to become the victim of some thugs in need of valuables and that I did the right thing by just giving them everything and not attempting heroics. That was something I could deal with.

Sometimes things are out of your control and unless you decide you never want to leave the house and you just want to live in a bubble with life passing you by, it can happen that you become a victim of somebody who's fucked up enough to cross boundaries. You don't need to be a pathetic, helpless, fucked up soul for it to happen, some things you can avoid, some you can't. For some people admitting that they were a victim and that it was really not their fault helps with the healing process, helps them to get on with life, because it's a pretty natural reaction to ask yourself what you did wrong. It's also a pretty common thing that child abusers, rapists and wife beaters do a bit of blame shifting with "You made me do it!" or "I only did it because I love you so much and you drive me to it", it's a form of brainwashing. For the victims it is important to realize that they really were victims and they are not to blame, that they are not guilty, that what happened to them was out of their control, so they can move on with their lives without beating themselves up about it.

That's one of the reasons why I get so pissed off when somebody claims to be a victim because they just changed their minds, or women who accuse a guy of rape because he didn't call them after a quick fuck. In my opinion people who abuse that and claim to be victims should be treated as harshly as somebody who actually victimized somebody, just to protect people who were victims and who have a really hard time reporting an actual crime.

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Post #: 146

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 9:28:10 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Why is a victim a pathetic, helpless, fucked up soul?

I'm not sure there is better wording, but I'll give it a go. So bad things happen to all of us. For some people, the bad thing happens and they are a victim. Then they pull their shit together, learn something from the experience, and move on. Other people, however, develop a victim mindset. They start to see their own self in the light of a victim. That is then a self-perpetuating cycle.

So I think there's two different concepts of victim floating around here... maybe.... "a victim in the moment" and "a victim mindset".

I can't speak for her, but for me it's not the first of those that bothers me. That's just a technical description of an event. But I do not want the first to lead to the second which is, what I fear, is encouraged by the structures of BDSM.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 147

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 10:06:53 AM

LadyConstanze

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For me admitting that you have been a victim is a way of moving on, you know the "Not my fault, shit happened, I shouldn't beat myself up about it but get on with my life", as I said, it's part of the healing process. After that robbery, I was a mess, first time I've seen a gun and then had the business end pointing at me. I needed a few good cries, could have done without the nightmares.

What you call the victim mentality is for me somebody who's fucking lazy and wants to be rescued all the time. Now everybody needs to be rescued/helped from time to time, no matter how dominant people think they are, there is nothing wrong in asking for help, there's everything wrong in expecting others to do all the work and not get off your ass yourself. I prefer the term "professional complainers" or "professional victims".

It boils down to you can't help people who don't want to be helped to get better, they just want sympathy. I stay clear of them, they're emotional vampires

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Post #: 148

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 10:50:25 AM

JeffBC

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I'm with you LadyConstanze... as is, I assume, LW. I was just trying to highlight the two different "victims" going on here.

I don't mind someone who has been victimized.
I DO mind someone who has taken on the victim mindset.

I think there's a FREAKIN RAFT of the second one of those in BDSM... notably BDSM, female, subs. And more and more I'm thinking that's not accidental. More and more I'm wondering if that's the answer to Ladypact's "Why does this happen?" question.... because we want it to.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 149

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 1:41:20 PM

LadyConstanze

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I think in BDSM it's just a bit more obvious than in other walks of life, outside of BDSM you get the people who always complain about the ex and how badly he/she treated her/him, it's constant, then the job hoppers, and it was always the fault of colleagues or the boss, never their own laziness or the fact that they made a lot of mistakes, drama queens where every hickup in their lives is a massive conspiracy and instead of getting off their butts and changing anything, they spend hours and days complaining to everybody who doesn't manage to escape fast enough.

I recently broke up with a friend, I was simply tired of being her ATM machine when something went wrong, it was always some big problem somebody else caused, not her fault... After the umpteenth time when she desperately needed something between 100 and 500, and each time it turned out that she had ordered online or bought something on her credit card and then didn't pay the bill and now her rent payment was short, I suggested that she should talk with a financial counsellor, because if she can't afford the big flat screen this month, chances are that she can't afford it next month - and does she really need one, and while I have a lot of sympathy for her being a single mom, if she does know her child is going on a school trip, she might not splash out on fashion items for herself, because her child comes first. I was very very polite about it, it was amazing how she turned on me, all of a sudden I didn't have sympathy, I'm a selfish bitch... Good fucking riddance.

In a way I feel like I enabled her to go on being irresponsible, she can look for another sucker now!

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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Post #: 150

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 1:50:49 PM

JeffBC

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And again, I completely agree. Our culture has become one of "it's someone else's fault". A casual trip over through the politics & religion forum pretty much shows it for all to see. There's so much pointing fingers at each other that the real problems don't even get discussed.

But I think "the scene" heightens and amplifies that for quite a few different reasons. Some of them are probably unavoidable. Others... well... others I believe are absolutely and coldly deliberate. I'm starting to see a confluence of "features" of "the lifestyle" which all together spell disaster -- or, at least, disaster more than it ought to be happening. Obviously, it isn't THAT disastrous since it's been going on like this for quite some time and people seem content.

Man, I gotta tell you. Before this I was planning on going and visiting a public play party sometime and I thought I'd be pretty casual about it. Since I wasn't going to be playing how much trouble could I get in, right? Again, double face-palm. I still want to go as soon as I finish this cursed fundraiser but I'm sure going to be pretty damned careful about how I interact with a female there. If I had my druthers, I'd have a 10' "no fly zone" around me although in this case it'd be "no women, no subs, no bottoms, no victims"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 151

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 2:06:13 PM

LadyConstanze

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I wouldn't worry so much about it because chances are that you going there, you don't get much of a chance to play.

It's seriously not just the women who tend to be professional victims, if you are a woman you get tons of male subs who tell you how they were exploited and mistreated by dommes, oh the horror, you know they apply as house slaves and then are actually made to clean. The funniest thing is, I saw one of them when I visited a friend who has a professional dungeon and he was fucking useless, now the same guy approaches me on CM with tales how abusive she was, and how she exploited him. I was there that effing afternoon and he ruined a bunch of her leather by throwing it into the washing machine, as a result she told him to get out and never come back. The story he told me about her and others, he was the victim of dommes without ethics...

Sometimes I really bless my lucky stars for my friend who still works as a pro-domme, when I really get the itch, I let her know and she finds a nice masochist for me. While I couldn't put up with the shit anymore (wanker calls and time wasters) of being a pro, it has to be said that the guys in general are better, they usually do not beat around the bush and then scream abuse, they tell you pretty much what the hard limits are and you don't have to worry about the victim mentality.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Post #: 152

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 2:10:29 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I wouldn't worry so much about it because chances are that you going there, you don't get much of a chance to play.

There would be ZERO chance of me "getting to play" since I wouldn't be there to play. I don't "play". I'd be going there to learn about what the experience is like. I no longer think that simply abstaining from play is "safety" in such an environment.

As I said, I'm kind of looking at it more like a lawless biker bar with people being rowdy. Look, even if I just wanted to get a beer then move on, that doesn't make the place itself "safe" on little bit.

Oh, and I get it that professional victims come in all shapes, sizes and orientations. But as a male in American society there is a presumption of guilt in these sorts of things when the charge is applied by a female. So that adds a little extra edginess to the decision to go. Basically, some loose cannon sub could say anything to anyone about what I "did" and everyone would lap it up like kittens at the milk saucer. Hence, my desire to keep the potential problems away.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 153

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 2:21:13 PM

kalikshama

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quote:

I see most "protector" situations as victim trainers as well. I pretty well always have. I don't need protecting. I need to know how to protect myself.

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Post #: 154

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 2:29:10 PM

LadyConstanze

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Maybe I am really picky or I was really lucky, but most of the fetish events and BDSM parties I attended were in Germany, the biggest problem were actually pushy subs and male doms who thought they automatically domme every female. The DMs were really great and most of the people (my regular place was a massive space, a few thousand square feet on 3 levels) were regulars. In case something looked a bit off colour, you could rely on somebody calling a DM.

To go there, you had to be a member, meaning you had to fill out an application, you were given a piece of paper that explained the dos and don'ts of the place, general etiquette, that violating any of the codes would get you thrown out and you'd lose your membership, that you enter at your own risk, the club is not responsible for any injuries, the whole 9 yards, and you had to sign that you read that and agree with it.

Of course it happened that some guy tried to convince me to with him to the couples room and all that, if he wouldn't take no for an answer, there usually was a DM who showed up and asked if there is a problem. The place never had one scandal, in every room there were signs up with "Only consensual play, negotiate first, nothing inserted without condoms, no drugs, disinfect equipment..."
There were quite a few female DMs around and newbie subbies could ask one of them to help them when it came to negotiating scenes, the place was really good, a lot professional dungeons sent aspiring dommes there as assistant DMs just for the training. Quite a few pro dommes volunteered as DMs for at least a few hours an evening because it was pretty good advertising for them or they were seriously involved in the scene.

There was never one hint of a scandal or a rape accusation - you didn't have a lot of privacy because apart from the toilets, all the rooms were open.

It really can work.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
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http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Post #: 155

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 2:48:23 PM

CRYPTICLXVI

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I move fast, like Superman making the earth rotate backwards, but in her twat

Laughing... but wasn't Satan/Lucifer the principality of air not earth?

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Post #: 156

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 3:08:52 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Why is a victim a pathetic, helpless, fucked up soul?

I'm not sure there is better wording, but I'll give it a go. So bad things happen to all of us. For some people, the bad thing happens and they are a victim. Then they pull their shit together, learn something from the experience, and move on. Other people, however, develop a victim mindset. They start to see their own self in the light of a victim. That is then a self-perpetuating cycle.

So I think there's two different concepts of victim floating around here... maybe.... "a victim in the moment" and "a victim mindset".

I can't speak for her, but for me it's not the first of those that bothers me. That's just a technical description of an event. But I do not want the first to lead to the second which is, what I fear, is encouraged by the structures of BDSM.

Yes, this. Thanks JeffBC for answering for me.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Post #: 157

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 3:14:27 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
It really can work.

*nods* Everything, of course, can only be considered in it's cultural context. I can only speak to what I've seen & heard in Canada & the US. And, without wanting to sound condescending, it is possible you may not appreciate the concerns of males, neh? I'd be interested if you were to ask around a bit. Where did that whole "he touched my neck, help rape!" thing happen?

The other thing is I'm not saying it's not working. I'm the ultimate pragmatist. Look, this is the system that's been setup, give or take, for decades now. Everyone perpetuates the system. It obviously IS working. I suspect the lawless bikers LOVE those lawless biker bars. But me, the computer geek... not so much. I would say it is working for BDSM people. It just has a lot of unfortunate fallout but it is apparently "acceptable collateral damage".

By the way, the "lawless" reference has to do with the fact that BDSM is illegal in the states. That automatically puts anyone participating in it outside the law. That plays into things like "calling the cops".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 158

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 3:35:25 PM

LadyConstanze

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I think from that respect it was a lot easier in Germany, the basic rule was more or less that to touch somebody, you actually talked to the person before, admittedly it took a lot of spontaneity out, but also a lot of drama was avoided. I went there for a few years, in average once or twice a month, I never witnessed one incident of "You touched my neck, that is rape" - what I witnessed was that some guy considered himself super-dom and got involved - without checking and getting the OK - in the play of a couple. He got a time out (chucked out) and was told he is not welcome for at least another month, they made an entry next to his membership number (due to legal reasons you had to have your membership card with you, if not, you could get a temporary one but had to show valid ID), next time would have been a rather painful lesson, he might have slipped on the stairs...

I mentioned the girl who was quite willing and then tried to stir up trouble because he didn't ask for her number or hung around, it was her first time there and if she would have started to cause trouble, one of the DMs would have sat her down, another DM would have asked the guy who was accused and the people that were around. And nope, that guy didn't touch her neck, his hand had disappeared in her almost up to the elbow and the noises she made sounded a bit like a pig feeding, no restrains on her, just her with her legs wide open and enjoying herself.

I spoke with a lot of guys there, you know what one of the most common complains was? They paid the entry fee and it didn't guarantee them the kind of female attention they want. There were some minor scenes, but that was usually when one of the DMs told them that they can't insert a toy without a condom, it was usually "But they are our own" but the rule there was simply, you insert something, you have a condom over it, and yes, the condoms were supplied by the club.

I seriously miss that place! If you weren't in the mood to play or watch people playing, you went to one of the several dance floors (you could pick one where you liked the music), or you hung out in the cool down rooms and just watched people in fetish wear. With a vanilla outfit you were denied entrance anyway.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 159

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/13/2012 3:39:16 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

his hand had disappeared in her almost up to the elbow and the noises she made sounded a bit like a pig feeding, no restrains on her, just her with her legs wide open and enjoying herself.

Bloody hell, I wouldn't have thought that was physically possible.

ETA:

Sometimes I think, why bother with BDSM? Just go to the hospital, refuse the anaesthetic, have surgery and get something cured at the same time!

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 8/13/2012 3:40:43 PM >

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Post #: 160

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