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Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 4:58:16 PM   
sunshinemiss


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From the Bang My Head / Dinosaur thread:

How do you reconcile scientific conclusions which
you seem to believe with the story of creation?

I want to answer this in a NON-Pols/Rel thread.... but I didn't want to derail the thread it was on either.

The Christians who don't believe in evolution have their reasons... I believe rooted in "G*d created the heavens and the earth" Thus the wave the magic wand and poof there it is.

Why would one limit G*d by deciding HOW that creation took place?

To my mind it's not an issue ... By limiting the way G*d did / does something, we are limiting G*d. Personally, I choose not to do that.

Best wishes.
sunshine

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 5:09:47 PM   
ARIES83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

And... As the OP suggests there is an occurrence
(in my experience, a common one) of religious people
who can't rationally or logically discuss the discrepancies
between empirical findings religious teachings.
There is a commonly held scientific understanding that
evolution is the origin of species, this does not disprove
the existance of god.
It does question the validity of the bible and the truth
behind claims about adam/eve and the list goes on.

Can anyone who believes man was created rather than
evolved from primates please share how they reconcile
their understanding with the empirical evedance to the
contrary.

-ARIES


This was the question I had.

-ARIES

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 5:10:04 PM   
JeffBC


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Belief is not logic. Faith is not logic. Religion is not science.

I don't even see why anyone would bother to refute the claims. Look, religious people make all sorts of claims I don't agree with. I certainly don't spend my time trying to refute the bible. The fact that such thinking is taking over the American culture is, however, a serious problem for our country. If we go back to worshipping the spirits it's gonna be really hard to keep making new inventions.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:09:06 PM   
RemoteUser


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In the beginning, there was an old guy with a long white beard. We'll call him Captain G.

The Captain was surfing through this great new invention he had called "the Universe" and found a planet where the indigenous life was eating each other.

"Cool!" the Cap'n muttered, and down he went to see it up close.

The creatures that dominated the planet called themselves dinosaurs. They had simple brains, but lots of potential. The Captain taught the dinosaurs how to irrigate, raise domestic creatures which he called 'humans' as livestock, explained basic tribal rulership to cut down on the wholesale slaughter, and left.

Ten thousand years later when he returned, Captain G was horrified to find out that his buddies the dinosaurs were practicing politics, using advanced science to make lasers for burning things (instead of writing their names in the sky, way cooler) and worst of all...they were making whole species extinct!

"This won't do," the G-Man proclaimed, and he zapped the planet with his eyes. (Yes, his hands were on his hips at the time.) The dinosaurs went poof, and Captain G erased all traces of the technology. Then he let the humans go, patting them on the head and saying,

"So if you survive the next couple of million years or so, I'll try you out and see how you do."

Then Captain G ascended into the sky on solar winds, and the rest...has no evidence. But you don't need evidence to know dinosaurs really are cool. It's not their fault they were corrupted by an omnipotent archetype.

The moral of the story is that dinosaurs are cool, and I'm sticking with that.


< Message edited by RemoteUser -- 8/13/2012 6:10:09 PM >


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:11:12 PM   
ARIES83


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Im not trying to refute anything,
it's an open ended inquiry.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:17:53 PM   
Hillwilliam


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A book written thousands of years ago said it, they believe it.

End of argument.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:19:38 PM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Im not trying to refute anything,
it's an open ended inquiry.


I know, which is really cool. Those make for some of the best discussions.

I've never tried to reconcile them myself. The post above is an example of how my brain would degenerate if I tried. It does make a pertinent point, though - that reconciliation can be purely based on suspension of fact in its absence. Whether my theory is in any way likely or not, the ideas that generated it should bear directly on your question.

If anyone out there does try to logically or factually reconcile the two, I'd be very intrigued to hear how.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:20:46 PM   
JeffBC


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Ahhh. I remember. I passed that up because I'm not a creationist.

I think the answer to your question is rather obvious though. They simply discard all data which refutes the belief. Alternately, they make up untestable and unprovable reasons for the data (the devil created dinosaur bones and implanted them in the earth to confuse us). That's how belief works. It's why science is different. Global warming anyone?

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:26:57 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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My favorite dinosaur is the stegosaurus.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:43:36 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Ahhh. I remember. I passed that up because I'm not a creationist.

I think the answer to your question is rather obvious though. They simply discard all data which refutes the belief. Alternately, they make up untestable and unprovable reasons for the data (the devil created dinosaur bones and implanted them in the earth to confuse us). That's how belief works. It's why science is different. Global warming anyone?


A few creationists are a tad more aggressive. . . .they build theme parks to promote their views.

"The project is a collaboration with a non-profit organization Answers in Genesis, which runs the Creation Museum in Boone County, KY. The Nation’s Chris Hayes noted on MSNBC last night that Answers in Genesis “is dedicated to portraying the Bible’s view of history. Among their claims, the Earth was created in six days, just 6,000 years ago, and that at one time, man and velociraptor co-existed peacefully.”

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/12/02/132970/kentucky-park-dinosaurs/?mobile=nc

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:44:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

My favorite dinosaur is the stegosaurus.


I could never get a saddle on mine

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 6:45:24 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Imagine having a deinonychus as your hunting animal!

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:04:04 PM   
FrostedFlake


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My favorite Dinosaur is the Velocipede.

But God rides around in one of these, also called a velocipede.

It's, y'know, evolution.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:15:25 PM   
poise


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My favorite dinosaur is, and always will be, TheRaptorJesus.

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:16:23 PM   
Aswad


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~fr~

The simple answer is: creationism only makes sense when you see it as a metaphor.

Dinosaur bones and all that is sort of like the UFO crowd. Connect the dots can be an entertaining exercise when you also get to pick and choose the dots, but ultimately it's not an enlightening one. Take away the creationism, and they'll be on about the Illuminati instead. Or how alien tech is used to control humans via satelites to kill us off, as opposed to just placing an asteroid in our way around the sun (at a couple megameters per second, even a smallish rock makes anything we've ever done seem like lighting a match). Or networks of gay politicians allowing the Russians to govern the world.

The upshot is if they do movie scripts, movies might get more fun.

I sure ain't this creative.

Creationism, to me, is the religious equivalent of one form of the anthropic principle. The universe got the exquisitely narrow set of parameters that could sustain life, not by chance, but because its purpose is to host life. A purpose that comes from the being whose name one might liberally translate "existence itself is my identity". God, then, is the foundation of the stack of turtles: he exists unto himself. The rest follows from that. We're not here by chance, and not scheduled to blink out of existence by chance, either. That's an aesthetically pleasing idea, and one which neither contradicts any present evidence, nor leads to dangerous behavior in and of itself. Whether one believes it or not, is a matter of faith, a question of preferences. It isn't as if we have any solid basis for the idea that we exist, either, but I take it we all have faith in that notion.

You could also do a wierd reverse causality twist over the theme of God at the end of time looking back and observing a specific past, but only if you're a Calvinist.

Anyway, window dressing.

The biblical story presents a universe being created from nothing, symmetries breaking, forces and interactions differentiating, mass coalescing, worlds being created, life arising from the primordial seas with mammals emerging late in the process, and finally the ultimate product of this process: Woman. Then we mature and head out into the world. Try to kill off the farm boy, which results in being ostracized. The agricultural revolution is a fact. That's the Fall. And so we move on down the ages, fucking things up as we go, with occasional pointers as to the right direction being provided and ignored. Throw in some periodic revisions of the story to make it suit the political agenda of the day.

One thing I do not see in there, is a young earth and fake dinosaurs. Nephilim, sure, but no fake dinosaurs.

Course, there may be a decoder ring that comes with the tinfoil hat, which I didn't receive.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:17:13 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

My favorite dinosaur is, and always will be, TheRaptorJesus.


All hail DinoJesu!!

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:20:25 PM   
CRYPTICLXVI


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

My favorite dinosaur is, and always will be, TheRaptorJesus.


All hail DinoJesu!!




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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:21:32 PM   
CRYPTICLXVI


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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 7:47:05 PM   
ARIES83


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Aswad! I was actually thinking of asking you
to come play "god's advocate" since you do
such a good job as devil's advocate over in
the gorean forum.
How bout it?

-ARIES

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RE: Dinosaurs - 8/13/2012 8:58:52 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss



From the Bang My Head / Dinosaur thread:

How do you reconcile scientific conclusions which
you seem to believe with the story of creation?

I want to answer this in a NON-Pols/Rel thread.... but I didn't want to derail the thread it was on either.

The Christians who don't believe in evolution have their reasons... I believe rooted in "G*d created the heavens and the earth" Thus the wave the magic wand and poof there it is.

Why would one limit G*d by deciding HOW that creation took place?

To my mind it's not an issue ... By limiting the way G*d did / does something, we are limiting G*d. Personally, I choose not to do that.

Best wishes.
sunshine



For me science and my belief in God match up perfectly well. We have to keep in mind that Genesis is the first book of the Old Testament which is the Jewish Torah. When it was written, numbers were symbolic and therefore the 7 days held a special meaning. 7 is a divine number in Kabbalah. If you look throughout the bible you will see many patterns of 7 and of other numbers such as 40. Now, each day was not a literal 24 hour day but was meant to symbolize thousands of years of creation and evolution. So you see, there is no contradiction. There have been many evolutionary stages designed by God that complement science and since God created everything there would be no reason science would not match.

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