Touching without permission

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LadyConstanze -> Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:15:37 AM)
I've been pondering a comment somebody made for ages, it was this one: quote: I'm tired of people taking consent to the extreme limit. Saw an FL post with a girl losing her shit because someone touched her neck without permission. OK, I do not know if that was a stranger touching her of it was in play. For the sake of the argument, I'll assume it was not her partner who touched her, quiet a few guys went off and how dangerous BDSM is for them, victim mentality and what not... Just for your own safety, guys, remember that it is really really bad etiquette (to the point that a lot of BDSM venues ask you to leave immediately) to touch somebody without permission, it shouldn't have to be said and personally I think it should be understood. Because somebody is a sub doesn't mean he or she is "your sub" or that you can touch. I'm not a sub, but if a stranger would touch me without my permission in a vanilla or BDSM environment (apart from the socially accepted shake hands or touch the arm), I would lose it too, if somebody would touch a submissive of mine without permission, yep, there would be hell to pay. Guys, imagine being somewhere with the wife or gf and a stranger would just have his hands on her - you wouldn't like that, so extend the same courtesy to others, no matter which environment you're in. In case it happened during a scene, then I say bad scene negotiation on both sides. A lot of people have a phobia or freak out when they are touched at the neck, somebody grabbing my neck, I have to use all selfcontrol to not lose it and become violent, never been strangled or anything like that, I just don't like it. Since I don't sub, the issue doesn't come up, but if I play with somebody, I make sure to check if there are any triggers. Basic common sense. In short, anybody who walks into a BDSM club, grabbing and touching without checking first if it is OK shouldn't be surprised if people freak out and they are tossed out on their arse. Don't blame the person who gets upset, blame yourself and the fact that you couldn't be arsed to check first.

OsideGirl -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:23:16 AM)
I've never understood why people think that within BDSM D/s manners no longer exist. If I do not know you, I'm not going to touch in any manner that wouldn't be acceptable in a vanilla setting. I was at a social. I had some knife marks on my chest. A male "Dom" reached out and ran his hand across the marks without so much as a "hello" first. I dislocated his thumb.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:28:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl I've never understood why people think that within BDSM D/s manners no longer exist. If I do not know you, I'm not going to touch in any manner that wouldn't be acceptable in a vanilla setting. I was at a social. I had some knife marks on my chest. A male "Dom" reached out and ran his hand across the marks without so much as a "hello" first. I dislocated his thumb. What's even worse, women who kick a fuss (though I prefer your way of dislocating the thumb) are then blamed as playing the victim, instead of somebody saying "Idiot, you shouldn't touch without asking!"

OsideGirl -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:43:12 AM)
I think I had some things in my favor. Kane, the organizer of that event, is a stickler about the rules of engagement. I have a large circle of friends and good chunk of them are male. Plus, I have a reputation as being rock steady. I am not one of those submissives that cries to everybody after a scene about how I was abused. I've never "cried wolf". So, the general response was "Well, you shouldn't have touched". What I always found funny was that the guy who touched me had a huge following of sycophants, but he was someone that people that treat BDSM as just another way to have a relationship found "seedy".

GreedyTop -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:45:05 AM)
omg, I ADORE Kane!! He is SO awesome!!

LadyConstanze -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:48:06 AM)
I honestly can't recall a European club where there weren't signs saying "Ask before you touch, no touching without permission" - I always thought that was a bit over the top and should be understood, but reading stuff here - apparently not.

OsideGirl -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:54:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop omg, I ADORE Kane!! He is SO awesome!! Kane and Careena are two of our favorite people. We genuinely consider them to be friends. So, I'm sure you know how Kane is about the "rules"...

DarkSteven -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:56:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl I've never understood why people think that within BDSM D/s manners no longer exist. If I do not know you, I'm not going to touch in any manner that wouldn't be acceptable in a vanilla setting. I've actually found that BDSM events are stricter about this than vanilla events. At vanilla, I'll occasionally do some light touching, such as initiating a handshake with a woman. (I also snuck up on a friend and lightly tugged her ponytail recently.) At a lifestyle event, I'll be more cautious.

bighappygoth39 -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 8:56:31 AM)
As Ishmael Skye has pointed out, there can sometimes be a problem in clubs with dominatrix toxaemia victims wading in uninvited and showing other tops how to punish their sub(s) "properly". If it takes a sign to stop idiots like that ruining somebody else's night, so be it. From the account of knifey thumb boy, it sounds like there's a few guys with DT as well. Hopefully OsideGirl has given him at least a temporary cure.

OsideGirl -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 9:00:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze I honestly can't recall a European club where there weren't signs saying "Ask before you touch, no touching without permission" - I always thought that was a bit over the top and should be understood, but reading stuff here - apparently not. Most clubs here have an orientation where they go over the rules. But, it's been my experience that most of the offensive stuff happens at munches and socials.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 9:05:33 AM)
I'd take that with a pinch of salt, as a female going to any fetish event, you get more offers than you can cope with, they're much too busy handling that. Though truth to be told, I sometimes did mention to somebody that hitting the kidneys or the spine is not the best idea (especially when you see them striking there with fine regularity), the reply is usually "I've been doing it like this for years! I know what I'm doing", in that case it's very tempting to have the address of the nearest dialysis clinic at hand and give it to the sub with "You'll need that", but I usually just wander off and find a DM.

LordofDecadence -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 9:33:38 AM)
I was at an event one time with a former owner. It was a high protocol event, pretty snazzy with lots of people. Anyway, this Domme that had to have just turned 18 ended up walking up to me while my owner was talking to people and starts talking to me. I politely said that if she wished to speak with me she would need to get permission from my owner as stated in my contract under the section specifically dictating high protocol, also common sense in high protocol settings unless its a sub talking to a sub, generally. This Domme slaps me while yelling "How dare you speak to me like that!" I have to assume she was trying to get me in trouble via drama or was just plain stupid (No offense intended to the rest of the Domme's in the world). Either way it was funny for me at least because my owner overheard what I had said and turned to witness the slapping and yelling. When she saw this, she punched the aggressive Domme in the face....... hard. Although, I got corrected later for losing my bearing by snickering a lil'.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 9:49:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze I honestly can't recall a European club where there weren't signs saying "Ask before you touch, no touching without permission" - I always thought that was a bit over the top and should be understood, but reading stuff here - apparently not. In a club in Belgium I used to work, we had a guy come in with electric flyswatters. I'd never seen them before, and he was proudly showing them of to a group of people, while I watched as well. He offered to demonstrate on me, and I declined, after which he got a little pushy/naggy about it being no big deal and so on. I declined again twice more, very firmly. About half an hour later, I was behind the bar, and he was sitting on a barstool on the other side. I had my back turned to him, while I was talking to the owner, and suddenly he zapped me on my back and ass. Lifelong ban from the club, but apparently even with all the signs we had hanging up explaining the rules, there are still people who don't get that you being in a BDSM club doesn't mean that you can do anything you want with whomever is wearing a collar.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 10:00:50 AM)
Oh you can count on dumbasses, but the thing is, the guy was kicked out because he broke the rules, I'm just waiting for a guy to come on this thread and saying you played the victim because it was "Only a little zap with a flyswatter" and it didn't do you any harm. It's that dumbass behaviour that really gets me. What's so hard to understand that if you break the rules and the other person gets upset, the person is not playing the victim, the idiot who broke the rules is at fault. edited because I forgot playing

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 10:32:19 AM)
Using FR: These are people to whom the rules of social conduct to do apply (or so they think.) And when they get thrown out of the club, or the bar, or lose their job, or get tossed into prison, it will always be someone else's fault, b/c very often NONE of the rules apply to them. It's nice when they fuck up early on so you know who to avoid.

LadyPact -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 10:39:41 AM)
Has anybody ever attended a play party that didn't have rules about no non consensual touching? Big surprise here, but yeah, break that one and you should be bounced out of the play space. I'd be really interested to know what the circumstances were about the neck touching. If it was during a scene, that really is just piss poor negotiations. I would have to think if you were playing with someone and were exceptionally sensitive about your neck, you may want to mention that. (Does make Me wonder just how many folks do include "no touch zones" such as genitals as a part of their negotiations.) Oside, I have heard stories that were closer to what you mentioned. Can be true when it comes to cuttings or needle scenes/decorations. (Think needle corset.) That's why, if a needle scene gets done and the bottom is going to "wear" the work around the club, I go with them. There's always a chance that some twit will come up, poke at the person with their finger to say, "oh, that's really neat."

littlewonder -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 10:48:03 AM)
It seems that when people get into bdsm they lose their entire manners. It's like they think manners are not required in bdsm as everywhere else. If you wouldn't touch a stranger of any type, why would you touch them in a bdsm setting??? This is just common sense manners. If a stranger touches me when I'm at a friend's home or a grocery store, I'm gonna tell them that I don't like to be touched and then I would walk away from them and not ever be around them at all because they've already proved to me that they have no social graces. If a stranger at a play party touches me, I'm going to do the same and I'm sure Master would have some input into as well and it won't be a pretty picture. Once again, for the umpteenth time and I think I'm going to add it to my signature: Bdsm is not different, it is not unique, it is not special. If you wouldn't do it in a "vanilla" setting, don't do it in a bdsm one either. How friggin hard is that to understand???

GreedyTop -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 10:48:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop omg, I ADORE Kane!! He is SO awesome!! Kane and Careena are two of our favorite people. We genuinely consider them to be friends. So, I'm sure you know how Kane is about the "rules"... Indeed I do! Although I am sure neither of them will remember me, please let them know that I think of them both with much fondness!! Also that I still get the LDS notifications and wish like hell I could attend! LOL

littlewonder -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 10:52:18 AM)
quote: This Domme slaps me while yelling "How dare you speak to me like that!" At that point, sub or not a sub, I would have told her that there would be assault charges pending and then taken her outside and banned her for life. Sorry but someone else slapping me would be a serious enough crime for me to call the police.

JeffBC -> RE: Touching without permission (8/14/2012 11:03:21 AM)
I think you'd need to define "touch" before I can understand. For me personally I am very physically attuned to touch. It is very intimate... even casual things like hand shakes. Accordingly, I don't like it when strange people touch me. But you know what? When some woman gives me a hug I don't flip out. I graciously accept the hug, cringing a bit inside, and smile back and try to do the reasonable thing. Now.. if some strange woman came up to me and grabbed my balls that would be a very different outcome. I *sure the fuck* do not want to be anywhere within a 100' of a woman who might, upon the most casual of brushings in a crowded room, flip out. Not to worry though. This whole thing has convinced me that I really don't want to be anywhere near any of these settings ever. You all can flip out over each other far, far away from me is where I'm at with this.

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