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Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:14:03 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		In another thread and one of many I have seen over the years. Person A finds out that person B has lied and cheated and the relationship comes to an end in a ball of flames. Lost count of how many times I have seen it. What keeps amazing me is that each time it happens the apparent victim makes statements that just throw me for a loop. person B lied and cheated... But they still hold on to statements from person B like they are truth. IE... As in this last thread.. We didn't spend time at his place because his roommates don't understand etc etc... Say what. The guy lied and cheated... Why do they hold on to anything as true. Not to say everything was a lie... But to me anything that wasn't supported by other means would be immediately suspect. When a cheater and liar is discovered in my eyes... Even the truth is lost when it's truth. Hense why to me lies are so damaging to a relationship.

But I suppose that is me... What of you...are as quick to throw out the bath water and maybe the baby to when the lies are discovered? How do lies affect you and the relationships you been in. I am not saying the little white lies like does my ass look fat in this dress? Dear you ass looks wonderful to me in that dress. No I am talking about those things that are important to you that would shake the relationship.. How do you handle it? How do you hope to handle it?

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.
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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:26:03 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		When someone lies to me, I see everything they say and are as a lie. I simply walk away and don't look back. They are not worth any further effort.

The ones I see like the one you described, they want to lie to themselves. They don't want to accept that they fell for all his lies. It's easier to lie to yourself than to have to take responsibility for what happened in the relationship. People seem to have a problem owning their screw-ups.


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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:27:27 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Do you know anyone who grew up with an alcoholic parent? The kid makes excuse after excuse for why things are just fine at home. It often isn't until the child is a mature adult, often with kids of their own, that they say, "Holy fucking lightbulb moment. Parenting isn't supposed to be like that. My childhood was really screwed up."

Same general deal, to my mind. Admitting everything has unraveled means acknowledging that you're on your own, with no structure or protection. And that is terrifying, especially to people who consider structure and guidance in a personal relationship to be more important than love.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:36:17 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Carol is much, much more honest and honorable than me (for the record, she quibbles with that statement ... or at least feels it doesn't capture the whole truth). But I have definitely lied to her in non-trivial ways. It's a guaranteed fact that I could not (and would not want to try) to measure up to the standards of honesty normally discussed on these boards. "Doing good" is higher on my priority tree than "telling the truth". And then... of course, there's always the just plain bad decisions.

I don't know what to tell you. I suspect it was the thoroughness of the recovery after the fuck-up that made it seem like not such a big deal to her. I know that most people here have standards of truthfulness that I do not meet. I don't think of myself as particularly honest. I think I'm a real mixed bag truthfully. I'm generally good but I fail sometimes. I'm generally nice but there's an almost sociopathic core underneath that truly does not place much intrinsic value on human life. I make friends readily and resist making enemies but I am ruthless with my enemies seeking maximum aggression as quickly as possible.

If I remember, when Carol gets back from travelling I'll see if I can get her to post and answer why on god's green earth does she trust me?

I can tell you for me personally I don't have all that much interest in people's fuck-ups assuming they are not a commonly recurring event. I'm WAY more interested in how they recover from them. That's where I think I can actually measure someone's strength and honor. That's why I wouldn't divorce Carol even if she cheated on me (doubly damned on both marital and M/s angles). I'd be VERY closely attuned to how she handled herself in the recovery period though.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:39:04 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline
quote:

Do you know anyone who grew up with an alcoholic parent? The kid makes excuse after excuse for why things are just fine at home. It often isn't until the child is a mature adult, often with kids of their own, that they say, "Holy fucking lightbulb moment. Parenting isn't supposed to be like that. My childhood was really screwed up."


^^^That is heartbreaking and terribly sad.

I have a no-lie policy which I state up front. No matter what the circumstances, if I catch someone in a significant lie I am done with them. No second chances, no looking back.

< Message edited by MistressDarkArt -- 8/16/2012 9:40:01 PM >

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:39:04 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		When someone lies to me, I never trust them again.

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:47:20 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		It isn't My best point of character, but yes, yes I am.

Infidelity, to Me, is something you don't come back from. So is harming the apples.*** So is ruining us financially. So is being swallowed in the path of addiction.

In My opinion, every person should know those things that, if offended, are enough to make them find their self preservation, or the preservation of others that cross the "enough is too much" line.

I don't think I could ever believe other various statements from someone who cheated and lied about it. Stuff like integrity and honor don't have a sliding scale depending on the subject. It means that the evidence presented to Me on the cheating subject shows Me exactly how reliable you are in so far as being trustworthy. Or how little.

See, I've never been so much for folks who have come here and said, "yeah, I'm cheating on My spouse by being here without their knowledge, but I'm really a great guy, honest....." yadda, yadda. That will never mean shit to Me.





***Apples defines apples that don't fall far from the tree, the offspring.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 9:53:07 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		Imo, the thread you refer to, the poster was just explaining the lies he told and how he explained to her why she could not go to his place.. that doesnt mean she believes the lies today after finding out he was a liar and cheater..

Imo, everyone lies about something, the question is how serious are the lies? Of course if there are several lies then they add up exponentially.. I need to feel i can trust the guy i am in a relationship with since i expect to be his one and only.. If i find out he is seeing someone else when he is seeing me and we are supposed to be with each other only.. then i break off contact and never see him again, and no explanation from me either, no confrontation, just nothing further from me.. I have had to do that, unfortunately.. but i have since come to see that end as a blessing in disguise..

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:01:29 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		While I do not support lies and deceit; I do support forgiveness. Before I walk out the door, I make it a point to find out the REASON behind the lie. That's what is the deciding factor for me.

I have been in situations where the reason was enough for forgiveness and a second chance.

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:06:40 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		I believe everybody lies. I trust people who claim they never lie even less than I do people who can admit to lying sometimes.

That being said, I don't believe everybody necessarily lies about the big things, but everybody has little omissions, or embellishments, or white lies they tell not meaning harm, or that just come out to cover up their own insecurity. Most everybody also has, at some point in their lives, fucked up and lied about a big thing to a person they cared about and hurt that person badly.

What I care about is not that people lie, but how they lie, and why they lie, and most importantly, how they deal with the lie after the truth has come out. Somebody who stubbornly hold on to a lie after the truth has come to light, instead of dealing with their fuck up, fixing the mistake and moving on earns no respect from me in the process. On the other hand, a person who can honorably deal with the aftermath of a lie, own up to it, and set out to set things right while learning something in the process, can earn a great deal of my respect while doing so.

I personally try not to lie. I consider it an extremely bad habit that gets worse the more you practice it. That being said, who I'm lying to matters a lot to me in deciding how much I care about lying to them. I more rigorously attempt to be honest to people close to me than I am with strangers, to the point of really not having qualms at all about lying to strangers in the right set of circumstances.

In relationships I expect lies to happen sometimes, especially in the initial courtship period when everybody is trying to present themselves just a little better than they are. What I don't tolerate in relationship are malicious lies, that had the intend of causing harm. Lies of insecurity, vanity, impulse, embellishment or defensiveness I can easily get passed, provided the person deals with them in the appropriate manner after being caught.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Carol is much, much more honest and honorable than me (for the record, she quibbles with that statement ... or at least feels it doesn't capture the whole truth). But I have definitely lied to her in non-trivial ways. It's a guaranteed fact that I could not (and would not want to try) to measure up to the standards of honesty normally discussed on these boards. "Doing good" is higher on my priority tree than "telling the truth". And then... of course, there's always the just plain bad decisions.

I don't know what to tell you. I suspect it was the thoroughness of the recovery after the fuck-up that made it seem like not such a big deal to her. I know that most people here have standards of truthfulness that I do not meet. I don't think of myself as particularly honest. I think I'm a real mixed bag truthfully. I'm generally good but I fail sometimes. I'm generally nice but there's an almost sociopathic core underneath that truly does not place much intrinsic value on human life. I make friends readily and resist making enemies but I am ruthless with my enemies seeking maximum aggression as quickly as possible.

If I remember, when Carol gets back from travelling I'll see if I can get her to post and answer why on god's green earth does she trust me?

I can tell you for me personally I don't have all that much interest in people's fuck-ups assuming they are not a commonly recurring event. I'm WAY more interested in how they recover from them. That's where I think I can actually measure someone's strength and honor. That's why I wouldn't divorce Carol even if she cheated on me (doubly damned on both marital and M/s angles). I'd be VERY closely attuned to how she handled herself in the recovery period though.


Hell yes on all of this... since when are you my ghost writer Jeff?



_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:24:43 PM   
yourdarkdesire


Posts: 4477
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Do you know anyone who grew up with an alcoholic parent? The kid makes excuse after excuse for why things are just fine at home. It often isn't until the child is a mature adult, often with kids of their own, that they say, "Holy fucking lightbulb moment. Parenting isn't supposed to be like that. My childhood was really screwed up!"


I grew up in this house. It wasn't a lot of fun. And as a child, you learn that little lies are okay. And if little lies are okay, then medium lies are okay too. It took me a long long time and several relationships to figure out that this wasn't the way healthy relationships work.

If I lie now, it is usually a lie of omission, because someone doesn't need to know the truth. When I meet a new person and start chatting, I like to know as much about them as possible. During this time I warn them that I can be brutally honest, sometimes too much so.

The truth isn't supposed to hurt. The truth is supposed to set you free.


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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:26:43 PM   
subbingincalif


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

In another thread and one of many I have seen over the years. Person A finds out that person B has lied and cheated and the relationship comes to an end in a ball of flames. Lost count of how many times I have seen it. What keeps amazing me is that each time it happens the apparent victim makes statements that just throw me for a loop. person B lied and cheated... But they still hold on to statements from person B like they are truth. IE... As in this last thread.. We didn't spend time at his place because his roommates don't understand etc etc... Say what. The guy lied and cheated... Why do they hold on to anything as true. Not to say everything was a lie... But to me anything that wasn't supported by other means would be immediately suspect. When a cheater and liar is discovered in my eyes... Even the truth is lost when it's truth. Hense why to me lies are so damaging to a relationship.

But I suppose that is me... What of you...are as quick to throw out the bath water and maybe the baby to when the lies are discovered? How do lies affect you and the relationships you been in. I am not saying the little white lies like does my ass look fat in this dress? Dear you ass looks wonderful to me in that dress. No I am talking about those things that are important to you that would shake the relationship.. How do you handle it? How do you hope to handle it?



Posts like this, I have to admit, make me yawn. I don't have any interest in espousing some general philosophy in regards to generic lies. My reaction will depend on the specific lie and the specific person.

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:33:46 PM   
yourdarkdesire


Posts: 4477
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline 		Forgot to add: I tolerate absolutely zero lying from my children. My 14 year old told me he was going to a clarinet sectional a few months ago for his marching Band. Who's house? So and so's house. Parents going to be there? Yup. Okay. It is for marching band after all.

A few weeks later I found out it had actually been a house party, no supervision. (no booze or anything, these are good kids).

He lost his computer and X-box for a week. He didn't understand that I would have let him go regardless, because this is the first time he has had a group of friends this close. It was the lie that made me mad.

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:48:28 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subbingincalif
Posts like this, I have to admit, make me yawn. I don't have any interest in espousing some general philosophy in regards to generic lies. My reaction will depend on the specific lie and the specific person.

By my lights there is a lot of wisdom in that.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 10:51:01 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

So many great responses in this thread, my neck is tired from nodding to myself so much.

I can't speak for how others handle being lied to, or how they *should* handle it. There are a lot of possibilities as to why. I can speak for myself, however. I believed lies because I wanted them to be true, so really I was lying to myself. When I realized this (thanks to an amazing conversation with my mother), truth became very important to me. I want to live in the truth, starting with myself and branching out to those in my life. This doesn't allow much room for lies. If someone lies to me, there would need to be a damned good reason for it - one that I can understand and accept. I suspect those kinds of lies would be few and far between. I don't want to live my life wondering what's true and what is not. It takes up too much of my energy.

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 11:16:54 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		I have a honesty is the best policy, ...
Policy.
Lies = bye byes, but there's lies and
then there's lies, I'm open to explanations
if I find out, but I think it goes without
saying that in a D/s relationship, they are
an especially big deal.

I would probably hold the highest order
of punishment/correction for lies, if I didn't
end it and a sub wanted to continue to be
in a relationship with me then there would
be either whatever big tailored punishment
or the door, type of decision for them to
make.

I have actually never really been in the
position though, I have ended relationhips
because of lies I haven't yet had a situation
where I was willing to give the above
option...

I say at the start of a relationship,
"whatever you have done, I want you to
come to me and we will work it out."
If a partner desides to lie instead they are
basically betraying my wishes/trust and
turning their back on the dynamic aswell
so I think it's obvious that I wouldn't have
much patience with them if I found out.

-ARIES

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 8/16/2012 11:24:14 PM >

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 11:30:05 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

Generic question to the thread:

There is a specific story I'm fond of telling because it was a highlight in my career. When I tell the story it's, "Me, a front-line manager in a room full of CEO's". That is not factually correct. The actual composition was CEO's & CIO's predominantly with a smattering of other IT executive types and perhaps one or two very high level managers. Carol called me on that one. My contention was "nobody really wants to hear all the details of corporate power structures and the point is accurate... I was massively outranked in the room by everyone". She feels saying just CEO's is a bit self-aggrandizing.

So there's an example of a lie. I'm curious how you folks react to that?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 11:31:17 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC


So there's an example of a lie. I'm curious how you folks react to that?


Having often been in a similar situation, I say "A room full of senior executives." It's more accurate.

Edited to state my reaction to the lie, since that's what you asked for - it's an exaggeration and I agree with Carol about the self aggrandizing. A room full of CEO's sounds more important, as it paints a much different picture. I'd wonder if you were at a CEO forum or something.

Edited again to add another thought lol - One of my brothers often tells lies like that, to make things sound better than they are. The thing is, we all know it. So when he starts telling a story, we start filtering his words to determine what the *real* story is. He tells great stories, but we don't take them as seriously as he'd like us to.

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 8/16/2012 11:34:40 PM >

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 11:31:36 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		~FR~

I've had people say things to me like: "It wasn't a big lie" or "I didn't lie about something important".

I'n my distant past, I am guilty of both of these. Allow me to explain:

When I was married, frequently I worked long hours. I slept when I could and I needed a "routine" to help me get to sleep.

Frequently, my wife would wait (it seemed to me) until I was undressed, showered, and under the covers to ask: "Did you put the garbage out on the street?"

I didn't want to get out of bed. I didn't want to get dressed. I knew, from prior experience, that a "no" answer would precipitate bitching and moaning. So, I lied and said: "Yes" and resigned myself that I would have to walk out the door, three minutes early in the morning to get the garbage to the street and get off to my shift.

That this wasn't a "big" lie probably can be argued in some way but I think reasonable people can agree that global warming or the end of the world as we know it did not hinge upon the contents of those garbage cans getting to the dump. So, it wasn't a "big" lie.

The only answer I have to that is: "If someone feels the need to lie about something so inconsequential, what will they do, when their back is to the wall?"

Now ...

"I didn't lie about something important" Says who? How can one person decide for another how they feel about a certain topic.

Maybe those garbage cans being empty were important to my ex wife because she wanted to wash them out or she needed to put more garbage into them.

Maybe them still being next to the garage would be a hindrance in her morning routine.

Who the hell am I to decide what is important to someone else?

I have run into a few ladies who insist that they are always honest about important things. I always caution them that we may have different values and they may well wind up finding themselves on the outside, looking in.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Scratching the surface - 8/16/2012 11:34:25 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Having often been in a similar situation, I say "A room full of senior executives." It's more accurate.

fair enough (and I think that's how I'll tell the story in the future... it's nicely succinct also). But still, that wasn't my question. The question is how you react to the lie?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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