RE: Poverty programs (Full Version)

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Rule -> RE: Poverty programs (8/19/2012 6:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
That raises the interesting question of what shapes an individual's mindset and the actions that grow out of it. What seems to make some folks more self-reliant than others

This kind of psychology is genetically encoded. Trying to encourage some-one who lacks the genetics/psychology to be self-reliant is like encouraging someone without legs to run: setting that person up for failure.



erieangel -> RE: Poverty programs (8/19/2012 6:43:50 PM)

quote:

The single most important component involved in getting an individual out of poverty is the individual living in it. It may be fun for some to mock the idea of pulling oneself up by the bootstraps, with a snark that you have to have boots first, but it doesn't alter the importance of self-reliance, and keeping your own eyes open to every opportunity and option that does come along.


How does one go about pulling oneself up by the bootstraps if they don't know how?

I'm poor, but I'm not as poor as I was a few years ago. Five years ago (has it been that long already?) I was on social security, medicaid and food stamps. Before my grandmother gave me the house, I was on Section8. I didn't have a car because I couldn't afford to buy one, keep one in good repair, pay insurance; I couldn't even afford to put gas into a car. I'd bum rides from my sister, my mom, friends and neighbors, even from case workers when I could. Half the time I didn't have a home phone because I had trouble sometimes keeping up with the bills in the winter. I was ready to work at one point, even applied for some jobs. A discount store, similar to Dollar Tree and Dollar General was opening up downtown and I figured I could easily be hired there because I had experience running a register. But the owner wouldn't hire me, it had been too long since I'd last worked. Mind you, at the time, I was one of only 12 people who decided how $8 million got spent in my county, and I wasn't trustworthy to run a register. I couldn't get a job at Taco Bell, either and I should sued them because I wasn't hired simply because of my age. I know this because the 23 yr. old manager sat right there and told me if she did hire, I'd be the oldest person on the crew. And a week later, the same woman hired my 17 yr. old son who had dropped out of high school. He didn't even fill out an application, just walked in, asked to speak with the manager, asked for a job and was hired on the spot.

I was unable to pull myself up by my own bootstraps. But luckily I got some help. I know I didn't do it on my own. About the same time I felt ready to try to work, the peer specialist program was beginning in PA. I put myself on the waiting list for training. Two weeks later, I had the opportunity to go to another county for training, all expenses paid by my county. $2,500 for the 2 week training, 16 nights in a B&B, they even arranged for transportation to and from my lodging to the training site because the county sponsoring the training had no public transportation. Oh, and a generous allowance for meals. During the training, I decided I wanted to work for the agency where I now work. I had another job offer which happened to have been with a good friend, but I turned him down. I wanted to work for Stairways. And I waited 6 months for the job interview and offer.

I drew on the system for several years. Maybe that is why I don't complain about the meager amount I do pay in property taxes, sales taxes and the like. I do complain when I don't think tax dollars are being wisely and I always have.




kalikshama -> RE: Poverty programs (8/19/2012 7:02:00 PM)

erieangel, I always like when you share your story :)



erieangel -> RE: Poverty programs (8/19/2012 7:56:21 PM)

Thanks kali



TheHeretic -> RE: Poverty programs (8/19/2012 8:38:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The problem with giving them real world work habits is that there seems to be little real world work opportunities available due to outsourcing and robot/micro chip technologies. Would you agree that is a problem? What becomes of the Gingrich junior janitors after they graduate?




Yes, Vince, I will certainly agree that a lack of employment opportunites is a big part of the problem.  The best advice I could give to someone in that environment who wants to do better, would be to get the hell out of it.  If they qualify for job training, then get them into 18-wheelers, and if not, offer to drive them down to the recruiter's office.  Section 8 vouchers are portable, nationwide.  They aren't going to find a better way, in the same toxic rot that spawned them.  Just get away, whatever it takes.

And yes, the employment landscape has changed.  High pay, low skill, manufacturing is a thing of the past.  CNC machines pump out the same parts in a few hours, that a whole row of skilled machinists used to make in a day.  Lots of places still need a few human forklifts, though, and for someone who is willing to work, they might very well be willing to train.  Medical services and support, especially with the coming geriatric generation, looks pretty stable. 

None of it is going to work, if people aren't willing to at least glance at themselves to solve a problem, before they look for help elsewhere.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/19/2012 9:08:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
None of it is going to work, if people aren't willing to at least glance at themselves to solve a problem, before they look for help elsewhere.


This. Period.



vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 4:59:42 AM)

quote:

And yes, the employment landscape has changed.


This is not new in history. Bombed out cities like Berlin and Dresden were rebuilt. Is there a reason why we cannot rebuild these desperate areas with private/public partnerships in light industry? Whatever happened to the enterprize zones that Jack Kemp proposed? Why have we abandoned these American cities?



vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 5:21:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
That raises the interesting question of what shapes an individual's mindset and the actions that grow out of it. What seems to make some folks more self-reliant than others

This kind of psychology is genetically encoded. Trying to encourage some-one who lacks the genetics/psychology to be self-reliant is like encouraging someone without legs to run: setting that person up for failure.



I doubt genetics plays a role. And since we are basically talking in this thread about minority children you might wish to be more cautious with your suggestion that it does. You might also read the article before you apply theories that make you feel comfortable but are otherwise useeless.

from the article linked in the OP:

In fact, though, you don’t need a neuroscientist to explain the effects of a childhood spent in deep poverty. Your average kindergarten teacher in a high-poverty neighborhood can tell you: children who grow up in especially difficult circumstances are much more likely to have trouble controlling their impulses in school, getting along with classmates and following instructions. Intensive early interventions can make a big difference, but without that extra help, students from the poorest homes usually fall behind in school early on, and they rarely catch up. When you cluster lots of children with impulse-control issues together in a single classroom, it becomes harder for teachers to teach and for students to learn. And when these same children reach adolescence — unless someone like Steve Gates has managed to intervene — they are more likely to become a danger to themselves, to each other and to their community.




papassion -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 11:59:16 AM)


The economy is bad and lots of people are out of work and its not their fault. But, everyone on here knows someone who is always "out of work" no matter what the economy is doing. We're told the infrastructure is crumbling. Instead of welfare, put them on training progams rebuilding the infrastructure where they learn a trade to support themselves. . They learn a trade, and the infrastructure gets repaired. win/win. For roughly the same money we spend on welfare for them to do nothing. Single mothers make up a large portion of welfare receipiants. Start childcare centers in underused hospital facilities to watch their children while the mother works and learns a trade. We are told welfare people are not stupid, so give the more responsible ones jobs caring for the children. Most hospitals are centrally located and with doctors and nurses nearby, what would be a safer place for a childcare center? Now there would be no excuse why you could not become a self supporting member of the community.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 12:26:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
The economy is bad and lots of people are out of work and its not their fault. But, everyone on here knows someone who is always "out of work" no matter what the economy is doing. We're told the infrastructure is crumbling. Instead of welfare, put them on training progams rebuilding the infrastructure where they learn a trade to support themselves. . They learn a trade, and the infrastructure gets repaired. win/win. For roughly the same money we spend on welfare for them to do nothing. Single mothers make up a large portion of welfare receipiants. Start childcare centers in underused hospital facilities to watch their children while the mother works and learns a trade. We are told welfare people are not stupid, so give the more responsible ones jobs caring for the children. Most hospitals are centrally located and with doctors and nurses nearby, what would be a safer place for a childcare center? Now there would be no excuse why you could not become a self supporting member of the community.


Not to be an ass and make light of your suggestions (especially since I have had both ideas almost exactly how you put them; I didn't have the childcare centers in hospital facilities, and I hadn't thought to put them on infrastructure crews), but that won't happen unless all the welfarians (yeah, I made it up) also join unions for the construction jobs. That is a very real, unfortunately, problem with public unions, anyway. In Toledo, there was a spat with city workers donating time to spruce up the city's flower beds and stuff (yeah, we had a mayor that spent thousands and thousands of dollars every year for flowers at the entry points to the city, while also running million dollar deficits). The donors had no problem with it and it was completely voluntary, and wasn't even an official "City activity." They got together outside of work and decided to donate their time and money to buy flowers/plants, weed the beds and then plant the new flowers. Well, when the union covering the workers whose job it was to do that found out, hell was raised. These donors were taking work away from union workers (even though the money to do the work wasn't forthcoming and the work needed to be done).

I am a huge supporter of helping people gain work experience and/or learn a trade so he or she can support themselves. I'm fully supportive of a child care center specifically for the children of these "trainees."



vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 1:02:10 PM)

quote:

The economy is bad and lots of people are out of work and its not their fault. But, everyone on here knows someone who is always "out of work" no matter what the economy is doing. We're told the infrastructure is crumbling. Instead of welfare, put them on training progams rebuilding the infrastructure where they learn a trade to support themselves. . They learn a trade, and the infrastructure gets repaired. win/win.


Gosh, I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before. If you read the linked article you will learn that Roseland is an isolated, violant neighborhood suffering a qualitatively different poverty that has a pathological effect on the behavior of children raised in such an environment. The article talks of "extreme poverty" that has a "degree of concentrated poverty" which was "extraordinarily toxic, especially to children, and it led, in neighborhoods like Roseland, to an exponential increase in related forms of social dislocation.”

quote:

For roughly the same money we spend on welfare for them to do nothing. Single mothers make up a large portion of welfare receipiants. Start childcare centers in underused hospital facilities to watch their children while the mother works and learns a trade.


The article also points out as I posted above that since 1984 "But over the following 20 years, that situation was reversed. Government aid to families in deep poverty fell by 38 percent on average, while aid to families in shallow poverty increased by 86 percent. By 2004, the government was actually giving more, each month, to families in shallow poverty than to families in deep poverty." So, your notion of how the welfare dollar is spent is way off the page. And what good will it do a mother to learn a trade if there is no job in the vicinity and no transportation out?

The article has graphic descriptions of the situation from running gun battles between gangs to aimless kids and decrepit buildings. It is pretty desperate.

“If poverty is a disease that infects an entire community in the form of unemployment and violence, failing schools and broken homes, then we can’t just treat those symptoms in isolation. We have to heal that entire community.” ~ candidate Obama before he got hit with the housing and banking system collapse.










vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 1:04:12 PM)

quote:

I am a huge supporter of helping people gain work experience and/or learn a trade so he or she can support themselves. I'm fully supportive of a child care center specifically for the children of these "trainees."


The problem is much more complicated than that. If you read the linked article you might propose a wider, more effective solution. Give it a shot.



mnottertail -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 1:14:11 PM)

Damien and Jasmine’s mother had been fighting a long, losing battle with the gas company. The previous summer, after she failed to pay the heating bill, the company shut off the gas line. Now there was no heat at all, winter had arrived in force and that hole in the living-room window let in a steady stream of frigid air all night long.

This is not from Obama, it isn't first hand and it isn't quoted. I bid poetic license.

A NYPD cop and photographer, I don't quite get how he knows this from a Chicago project, other than the montage of rememberances many years later and many years forward.

But I can tell you that if you are without heat in the dead of winter, you have to go outside to warm up, cuz all you got is a freezer box.

I dunno, maybe whole uncut truth, but not likely from reading the article.




Fellow -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 1:27:42 PM)

The discussion is interesting. One thing I have noticed there is some disconnect between two sets of problems: one is the economy not producing job opportunities, and the other is a worker training. A few months ago I checked the employment statistics and about 20% of jobs created were by agencies helping people find jobs. Is it ironic? This is were the business opportunities are? Payday loans, the other area of expansion. How to separate individual solutions from the advancement of society as a whole. Some people are finding ways to survive, even prosper. Still, at some point the whole system must change if there is a sharp downward tend as it occurs now. 



vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 4:44:30 PM)

quote:

But I can tell you that if you are without heat in the dead of winter, you have to go outside to warm up, cuz all you got is a freezer box.

I dunno, maybe whole uncut truth, but not likely from reading the article.


You may be right. There is always some kernel of distrust to be found in what we read cuz there is propaganda everywhere and on every side. However, I get the sense that you are imagining a high rise project. I read elsewhere recently that the last Chicago high rise public project building at Cabrini Green was imploded and the project replaced by townhouses, I think. I have the impression that Roseland is more like Watts in Los Angeles, eg: single family homes. It is not well defined in the article. Here is a Wiki article that seems to support the urban decline and neighborhood crime described in the article linked to this thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseland,_Chicago and I get the picture of a European ethnic neighborhood that succumbed to "white flight."



DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 8:16:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

I am a huge supporter of helping people gain work experience and/or learn a trade so he or she can support themselves. I'm fully supportive of a child care center specifically for the children of these "trainees."

The problem is much more complicated than that. If you read the linked article you might propose a wider, more effective solution. Give it a shot.


quote:

And what good will it do a mother to learn a trade if there is no job in the vicinity and no transportation out?


Perhaps you should broaden your horizons a bit, dude. If government is providing the childcare... could government also provide the "transportation out?" And, since the welfare dollars are coming from the taxpayers, perhaps the "job" the mom does to learn a trade or gain work skills is something that helps taxpayers, like - oh, I don't know - something for the local government? Well, golly gee, Beaver. Who'd have thought of something like that? Unfortunately, that is precisely what would get the public union(s) up in arms.

Perhaps, it is not I, but you, that needs to think a bit broader.



erieangel -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 8:55:33 PM)

It wouldn't be hard to "create" a new job title. My own job "peer specialist" is not a union job. I work right along side the case workers, social workers and base service workers--all of them members of the union. I am considered a part of the treatment team. And I am a valuable part of the treatment team because I bring to the team a perspective that nobody brings else brings--lived experience. Even though I work with young men, there is little they do or go through that I can not say "been there, done that". In fact, the few times I've stumbled it has been over drug and alcohol addiction because I've never had a done illicit drugs, drink infrequently and don't know anybody who has had been suffered addiction except one friend whom I met after she'd been sober for 18 years. A year after we met, she started drinking non-alcohol beer and soon was drinking regularly. We stopped speaking shortly she got out of rehab.

Anyway, what you are proposing costs money. Lots of it. It cost my county, with training and implementation costs, several thousand to set up the peer specialist program. That's just one program, in one county, in one profession. Of the roughly 93 or so people who have been trained at county expense, only about 50 are working at all, most of them part time and still collecting partial social security benefits. I'm one of the lucky ones, I got out of the system when I landed my full time job. To have some kind of a "job training" program and transportation program to help people move from these blighted areas would literally cost millions. I've read enough of your posts to know you really wouldn't be in favor of such a proposal, even if the people were doing government work.




TheHeretic -> RE: Poverty programs (8/20/2012 10:55:24 PM)

You'll have to catch me on the right thread, at the right time, Erie.  I can tell you all about addiction, and the first thing I'll tell you about successful recovery is that it must be an individual act.  Support is really nice, but not mandatory, and all the rehab in the world is pointless, for someone who doesn't really want to stop.  Not so different from what needs to happen in the lives of the individuals in Roseland.

Vince has brought up the, "it takes a village" school of thought, and quoted the President talking about, "healing communities."  I say, "screw that."  If the community is this toxic, let it go, and focus on the people.  Let the community splinter, so that the crack houses go under the bulldozer, and the neat old storefronts start to gentrify, at a toehold, along a safer edge.  We all read and hear the murder reports.  Bring in the law, dammit!  Hugs are not working.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/21/2012 5:26:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
It wouldn't be hard to "create" a new job title. My own job "peer specialist" is not a union job. I work right along side the case workers, social workers and base service workers--all of them members of the union. I am considered a part of the treatment team. And I am a valuable part of the treatment team because I bring to the team a perspective that nobody brings else brings--lived experience. Even though I work with young men, there is little they do or go through that I can not say "been there, done that". In fact, the few times I've stumbled it has been over drug and alcohol addiction because I've never had a done illicit drugs, drink infrequently and don't know anybody who has had been suffered addiction except one friend whom I met after she'd been sober for 18 years. A year after we met, she started drinking non-alcohol beer and soon was drinking regularly. We stopped speaking shortly she got out of rehab.


I'm not talking about new job titles. I'm not talking about "new" jobs. I'm talking about jobs that need to be done and are being done. If we had a training program, the current employees would be pushed out, but that could be done simply through normal attrition. Yes, the majority of the jobs would be "labor" jobs unless the person had other job skills that could be used in non-labor positions (labor = physical work, not necessarily Union work, in this example). Work experience, job training, etc. All of that could be done and the welfare recipients will benefit from actually working and earning their money. Plus, it will also help their self-esteem being relied on as part of a crew.

quote:


Anyway, what you are proposing costs money. Lots of it. It cost my county, with training and implementation costs, several thousand to set up the peer specialist program. That's just one program, in one county, in one profession. Of the roughly 93 or so people who have been trained at county expense, only about 50 are working at all, most of them part time and still collecting partial social security benefits. I'm one of the lucky ones, I got out of the system when I landed my full time job. To have some kind of a "job training" program and transportation program to help people move from these blighted areas would literally cost millions. I've read enough of your posts to know you really wouldn't be in favor of such a proposal, even if the people were doing government work.


Yes, I would be in favor of it, and it would end up costing less, not more. Government wouldn't be on the hook for "moving" the candidates, just running a commuter system to get them to and from work; they stay in their current homes. When you look at what is paid in welfare and what is paid for performing a job, I'm thinking my plan will end up costing less.

And, congratulations to you for your dedication and work. You are exactly the story more people need to hear and realize that it can be done. I wish more people had your mindset (and that applies to me, too).



vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/21/2012 8:46:37 AM)

quote:

Vince has brought up the, "it takes a village" school of thought, and quoted the President talking about, "healing communities." I say, "screw that." If the community is this toxic, let it go, and focus on the people. Let the community splinter, so that the crack houses go under the bulldozer, and the neat old storefronts start to gentrify, at a toehold, along a safer edge. We all read and hear the murder reports. Bring in the law, dammit! Hugs are not working.


Characterizing "healing communities" as "giving hugs" arises from your political bias, Rich, and does little to identify the problem or offer a solution. Like calling environmentalists "tree huggers" when we all know the necessity of living in a pollution free environment that will hold us safe from lung disease, heart ailments, and maybe cancers. So "screw that" is not much of a solution, except it is easy to turn your back on the problem. Gentrification raises the cost of property and living in a neighborhood and drives the residents and gangs elsewhere. It may seem a solution but it does not really treat the urban cancer. You can't just put a bandaid on one sore and ignore the metastasis of the disease.

America needs to do something about the third world nation that lives within our urban areas. Otherwise, we are wasting lives and productive talent. What characterizes failed nations is disorder and lawlessness. The abatement of disorder in all forms is a priority that must be done with the cooperation of the community with the police. There are pitfalls in the broken windows strategy but it did work in NYC and in Albequerque, as the linked article shows, and it is the underlying premise that makes Charter Schools successful. In order to heal a community the residents have to be co-opted into a program, the gangs, whores, and crack houses busted, the schools made orderly, and the neighborhood stabilized. Then maybe some industries can be brought in with a program of public/private contracts. Fire insurance can be written. Job training can be more effective and the neighborhood more likely sustained as an orderly and liveable environment of which residents can be proud.



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