RE: Poverty programs (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: Poverty programs (8/21/2012 7:36:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Characterizing "healing communities" as "giving hugs" arises from your political bias, Rich, and does little to identify the problem or offer a solution. Like calling environmentalists "tree huggers" when we all know the necessity of living in a pollution free environment that will hold us safe from lung disease, heart ailments, and maybe cancers. So "screw that" is not much of a solution, except it is easy to turn your back on the problem. Gentrification raises the cost of property and living in a neighborhood and drives the residents and gangs elsewhere. It may seem a solution but it does not really treat the urban cancer. You can't just put a bandaid on one sore and ignore the metastasis of the disease.


Not bias, Vince.  Paradigm.  I give weight to the individual, over the collective.  It isn't an either/or, but a question of which gets greater focus in the balance.  I view driving up the cost of living, forcing residents and gangs to splinter in many directions, and bringing up the property values as exactly the sort of positive steps needed.  You seem to view these things as negatives, and that is your paradigm (or bias, as you would describe it).

Now cancer, quite frankly, is a far better metaphor for my proposed solution, than anything you've offered.  We treat cancer by either carving it out of the body with sharp knives, or by poisoning it with chemicals/radiation.  Steve Jobs tried the health food approach, and we all know where it got him.

BTW, I am a tree hugger.  It's even my traditional vacation pic meme.  I just don't let tree hugging be defined for me by a bunch of fucking lefties who want to use my trees as clubs for their socio-political agenda.




vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 6:48:56 AM)

quote:

Not bias, Vince. Paradigm. I give weight to the individual, over the collective.


So, you confirm what I have suspected: you are really Ayn Rand reincarnated.

Yours is a heartless paradigm of cruel abandonment that may cause great damage, Rich. To wit:

"Where people live, work, and play has an impact on their health. Several factors create disparities in a community’s health. Examples include socioeconomic status, land use/the built environment, race/ethnicity, and environmental injustice. In addition, displacement has many health implications that contribute to disparities among special populations, including the poor, women, children, the elderly, and members of racial/ethnic minority groups.

These special populations are at increased risk for the negative consequences of gentrification. Studies indicate that vulnerable populations typically have shorter life expectancy; higher cancer rates; more birth defects; greater infant mortality; and higher incidence of asthma, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. In addition, increasing evidence shows that these populations have an unequal share of residential exposure to hazardous substances such as lead paint."

Centers For Disease Control and Prevention




Musicmystery -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 6:58:31 AM)

It comes down to this, Vincent -- Going for the Zero Sum Game paradigm is simply easier.

To do otherwise would take effort, creativity, and a clear direction and purpose. Most people just aren't good at this, because first, they have to get clear about just what it is they really want. Hence, rather than acknowledging responsibility, they look for who's to blame--somebody got theirs!




vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 1:32:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It comes down to this, Vincent -- Going for the Zero Sum Game paradigm is simply easier.

To do otherwise would take effort, creativity, and a clear direction and purpose. Most people just aren't good at this, because first, they have to get clear about just what it is they really want. Hence, rather than acknowledging responsibility, they look for who's to blame--somebody got theirs!


Not only is it a selfish paradigm, MM, it carries a strong wiff of the much discredited social darwinism. Let's pick out a few possible winners and screw the rest.




tweakabelle -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 4:17:32 PM)

quote:

  I can tell you all about addiction, and the first thing I'll tell you about successful recovery is that it must be an individual act.  Support is really nice, but not mandatory, and all the rehab in the world is pointless, for someone who doesn't really want to stop.  Not so different from what needs to happen in the lives of the individuals in Roseland


This is a dishonest argument based on a fallacy.

In my observation, the critical factor in many (if not most) recoveries is emotional support from the addict's circle of friends family professional health carers etc. While it is certainly true that nothing will help someone who doesn't want the help and support, the number of successful recoveries achieved without adequate emotional support is minimal. Successful individual recoveries tend to rely on the construction of a marriage between individual commitment and socio-emotional support systems.

Addicts don't build their recoveries in a vacuum. Very often, a large component of that recovery is reconciling the addict with his/her social milieu or to put that another way, rebuilding their support systems. Social isolation is to be avoided at all costs, a fact recognised by conservative recovery philosophies such as NA in their adage: An addict on their own is in bad company. Had most addicts the individual qualities necessary to build a recovery on their own, it is arguable that the exact same qualities would have eliminated the possibility of addiction before it had a chance to set in.

The operative fallacy here is the individualist fallacy - the idea that people can achieve anything entirely on their own. The link between this fallacy and right wing ideology is self evident and yet another reason why right wing ideologies inevitably fail.




stellauk -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 6:43:38 PM)

i read the article and being honest the one thing which jumped out at me was the conflict between the people featured in the article and the gas company. What was especially illuminating for me was that this was given as a statement of fact. No explanation as to how the conflict came about, how long it had been a conflict, or anything further as to how the conflict would cease to be one.

Therefore I take a middle path here and see this as six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Let's start with the people with the hole in the window and no gas. Poverty is no excuse here. I don't care how poor or destitute someone is, it doesn't justify not paying or not attempting to pay a utility bill. I've worked with the homeless here and those lucky enough to get a hostel place usually have to pay a service charge. Payment of the service charge, or non-payment, directly influences one's resettlement process, which can either take its natural course and one moves up the list, or it can delay it weeks, months, and in some cases years.

However nothing was mentioned as to what steps, if any, the gas company had taken to resolve the conflict. We weren't told whether the gas was affordable or not. Gas is a natural resource, therefore a utility company which supplies gas, or water or electricity cannot operate quite in the same manner as say a food supplier.

But this leads us to the bigger issue - poverty is a social issue, like other related social issues, crime, unemployment, disability, and so on. Poverty affects people, but poverty has got far more to do with opportunity than it has to do with people. Blaming the victim, i.e. the person affected by poverty isn't a solution, nor does it lead to any sort of solution.

London is about to host the Paralympics - or the Olympics for the disabled. The main sponsor for the event is ATOS Healthcare, a private healthcare company commissioned by the government to reform the welfare system by carrying out Work Capability Assessments on the long term sick and disabled.

Now there is a concerted media campaign against benefit 'cheats' and 'scroungers' which includes the sick and disabled, and there are those who claim that the sick and disabled are too dependent on welfare benefits.

The Government admits through its own figures that benefit fraud currently stands at 0.5% of all claimants. Yet ATOS Healthcare instructs its healthcare professionals to find a minimum of 87% per cent of all those assessed fit for work.

This leads to the situation where many people who are genuinely sick and disabled are being declared fit for work and they have their benefits stopped and are forced back into work, some are forced to work unpaid for a minimum six months for someone such as a High Street retailer. This scheme is called Workfare, and quite a lot of retailers, including half the major supermarket chains have signed up for it.

People who are being declared fit for work include the terminally ill, people who have lost limbs, people who need chemotherapy and dialysis, and the mentally ill who pose a significant risk to themselves and other people.

Furthermore on average 32 people are dying every week as a result of being declared fit for work and having their welfare benefits taken away. To put this into some sort of context this is higher than the number of executions carried out by any country with the death penalty (with the possible exception of China). This is two and a half times the number of victims of the recent Aurora shootings.

This figure only takes into account a small number of those committing suicide as a result of having their benefits taken away. It's important to bear in mind that once you have your benefits stopped you are out of the system. Many of these people are socially excluded. Furthermore people who commit suicide don't often leave behind an explanation as to why they took their own lives.

These welfare benefit reforms are destroying and dismantling a system which has taken decades of campaigning, lobbying and struggling to create. Nearly half of people who are registered disabled in the UK are gainfully employed.

Disability is also a social issue, and one which takes in not just people who are genuinely disabled, but many people who suffer from some sort of physical or mental impairment. Some people are born with conditions which impact on their mental or physical health, and others develop such conditions later in life, especially as they get closer to retirement age. Actually when you think about it the vast majority of people fall between the two categories of disabled and 'able-bodied'.

However as we live in a society based on free market values, disability has taken on a second meaning to describe the discrimination faced by people who are genuinely disabled and also many people who are mentally or physically impaired. There are people who live with their physical or mental impairment just fine, they cope, but they are disabled by the attitudes of other people. Therefore the UK system of disability isn't necessarily just one entitling people for payments because they are out of work, it's also a system which enables people to either recover from long term illnesses and find their way back into employment or to cope with the additional expenses of living independently.

Poverty is about opportunity, not people. Sure, some people are unable to perceive opportunities available to them, some can perceive the opportunities but are unable to make use of them, and also it's true in a lot of cases the opportunities just don't exist to begin with. In many cases of poverty either one, two or even all of the above statements may be true. Finding out which is true requires a careful examination of one's circumstances, background, history and medical history, and I don't think any of us is qualified to make a judgement call as to who is deserving and who isn't. Much less the media.

You will observe that poverty often goes hand in hand with crime. Contrary to what some politicians think there isn't a direct relationship between the two. Committing a crime requires a certain amount of creativity and also the making of a conscious moral decision which some people will feel is worth the risk of getting caught. However the vast majority of poor people don't resort to crime.

However if someone is creative enough and makes that moral decision, then opportunity will find itself. Crime doesn't need government funding or any external investment. I've yet to come across a drug dealer complaining that he hasn't got any dope to sell or a thief complaining that he's got nothing to steal. Crime is about opportunity, so too is poverty, but the only relationship between the two is the individual forming the relationship through their own creativity and conscious moral decision. However when we as a society leave those affected by poverty to fend for themselves - especially those who are unable to make use of the same opportunities as many others - are we not pushing these people in the wrong direction, i.e. towards crime?

I think not. Furthermore I have a theory in that poverty isn't being resolved because we are entrusting the task to people who lack the necessary understanding and knowledge about what poverty is, for example politicians, and 'experts' who haven't spent a single day in social housing and who don't really know what it's like to struggle just to get through to the next day.

This is compounded by the fact that we don't really give too much of a platform to the people at the bottom of society, we're not really that interested in their problems, and we're far more comfortable with our own preconceived notions and prejudices about people who are poor and too busy seeking the evidence to prove that we are right.

Add to this that many poverty and welfare programs aren't that effective at creating opportunities for those at the bottom other than perhaps providing subsistence levels of income to keep them from starving. There's too much emphasis on finding jobs, on training when there are other routes also possible when it comes to getting people to support themselves.

Then there's the uncomfortable truth about poverty - tackling poverty is about making the effort and to keep on making the effort. Why does poverty exist? Why does it seem to be growing? It's not rocket science, or voodoo or black magic. It's because we're not facing up to the issues and we're not making enough effort.

The short term objective of work is also insufficient. What is the point of forcing jobless people to work unpaid for six months if there's not going to be a job at the end of it? Furthermore what is the point of forcing sick and disabled people into work prematurely? Isn't this only shifting the social responsibility elsewhere? As an employer my sole concern is to find someone who can do the job. I don't see why I have to also take on the drama and the issues or play the role of occupational therapist or social worker.

There is a growing awareness that being without any work is detrimental in the long term and I genuinely believe that being without work makes someone less employable or even unemployable in a short space of time. However I see a distinction between work which is meaningful and fulfilling, and work which is more menial, and I don't quite understand why being poor necessarily excludes someone from the right to seek out opportunities of work which is meaningful or fulfilling. Being without work places someone at greater risk of mental and physical illness, but being forced into menial work doesn't really diminish that risk.

I see a necessity of change in the attitudes on both sides. In less than a decade we are going to start having baby boomers reach retirement age, for which they will expect to retire and receive some sort of pension. We cannot afford to be giving people money because they are without work and not expect something back in return. However I feel that expecting everyone to find jobs is unrealistic, therefore there needs to be greater emphasis on meaningful occupation.

However we as a society also need to start taking responsibility for some of the problems in society. We cannot continue by shutting people out of society because they are poor, impaired, or just different and trying to carry on without them. However this means we also need to find new economic strategies where we produce things on the basis of need and not for profit and on the principle 'each according to his own ability, to each according to his need'.

However given that we are a society with English language based culture we are at a distinct advantage to others, in that we have a popular culture that the whole world wants to share and be a part of. We could start by investing more in culture, especially in poorer areas and giving people in those areas a socially acceptable alternative to crime in order to stimulate and encourage creativity. It's important to remember that English language culture develops just as easily out of poverty as it does out of any other social background.






DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 7:02:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

  I can tell you all about addiction, and the first thing I'll tell you about successful recovery is that it must be an individual act.  Support is really nice, but not mandatory, and all the rehab in the world is pointless, for someone who doesn't really want to stop.  Not so different from what needs to happen in the lives of the individuals in Roseland

This is a dishonest argument based on a fallacy.
In my observation, the critical factor in many (if not most) recoveries is emotional support from the addict's circle of friends family professional health carers etc. While it is certainly true that nothing will help someone who doesn't want the help and support, the number of successful recoveries achieved without adequate emotional support is minimal. Successful individual recoveries tend to rely on the construction of a marriage between individual commitment and socio-emotional support systems.
Addicts don't build their recoveries in a vacuum. Very often, a large component of that recovery is reconciling the addict with his/her social milieu or to put that another way, rebuilding their support systems. Social isolation is to be avoided at all costs, a fact recognised by conservative recovery philosophies such as NA in their adage: An addict on their own is in bad company. Had most addicts the individual qualities necessary to build a recovery on their own, it is arguable that the exact same qualities would have eliminated the possibility of addiction before it had a chance to set in.
The operative fallacy here is the individualist fallacy - the idea that people can achieve anything entirely on their own. The link between this fallacy and right wing ideology is self evident and yet another reason why right wing ideologies inevitably fail.


Heretic, paraphrased, stated that if the individual isn't willing to stop and recover, he/she won't stop and recover, regardless of the support system involved.

You state that the critical factor is emotional support. Then you state, "nothing will help someone who doesn't want the help and support." Please tell me how what you said is any different from what Heretic said. In my interpretation, your statement and his state the exact same thing. Heretic didn't really blow off the support group's assistance in recovery, but that it wasn't going to do a damn thing if the addict didn't want to stop being addicted, which is exactly how I interpret your statement.

Please help me understand how what you said was different.




erieangel -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 7:22:23 PM)

quote:

I can tell you all about addiction, and the first thing I'll tell you about successful recovery is that it must be an individual act. Support is really nice, but not mandatory, and all the rehab in the world is pointless, for someone who doesn't really want to stop.


I disagree. I know little about addiction, but I know enough about it to know that recovering from addiction is much like my journey to recover from mental illness--it takes a strong support network. Nothing happens in a vacuum, not when it comes to people. To paraphrase--"he who would heal himself has a fool for a doctor".

Yes a desire to change and to recover from addiction is important. But most people accept that it can not be done alone. That is the premise of AA and all its permutations--NA, Al-anon, OA, etc. But usually, these groups are unable to help a person deal with underlying mental or emotional issues that are the cause of an addiction, which calls for a more intensive support network in the form of therapy and psychological help.

When I say I have no experience in addiction, I say it as a clinician. I've had only a few clients who had addictions problems and I've struggled each time to help them. I have no personal experience as a peer specialist to draw upon and my agency has yet to send me to a training for D&A. There have been some online trainings, but like I've told my supervisor, I don't learn well online.




TheHeretic -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 7:43:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

i read the article and being honest the one thing which jumped out at me was the conflict between the people featured in the article and the gas company. What was especially illuminating for me was that this was given as a statement of fact. No explanation as to how the conflict came about, how long it had been a conflict, or anything further as to how the conflict would cease to be one.



Just this, at least for now.

That's because it's a statement of fact, Stella.  Yes.  Your utilities can be shut off.  Your government owned and operated utilities can be cut off.  Rules vary by state, but if you don't pay your bill, sooner or later, the water/electric/gas will get shut off.  What really gets people into a bind, is that they will miss a couple of bills, and be shut off.  Then, to restore service almost immediately, they will take on a payment plan.  If they then don't make those payments, the entire balance will have to be cleared, and security deposits may be required.  If they TRULY want to step on their dicks, they will cut the little locking device, where their service is shut off at the connection, and turn it back on themselves.  Now they have two unpaid balances, a large security deposit, and must pay a high fine, in the form of a reconnection fee.




vincentML -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 7:50:12 PM)

quote:

But this leads us to the bigger issue - poverty is a social issue, like other related social issues, crime, unemployment, disability, and so on. Poverty affects people, but poverty has got far more to do with opportunity than it has to do with people. Blaming the victim, i.e. the person affected by poverty isn't a solution, nor does it lead to any sort of solution.


Exactly.

quote:

People who are being declared fit for work include the terminally ill, people who have lost limbs, people who need chemotherapy and dialysis, and the mentally ill who pose a significant risk to themselves and other people.


I have a friend in the Midlands who was denied assistance while she waited for removal of her spleen. Out of work for months and no help. Austerity policies are madness and in your nation have run amok.




TheHeretic -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 7:52:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
like I've told my supervisor, I don't learn well online.


Dammit, Erie, I'm really trying to avoid having at least a little fun with this.  

...

...


It ain't working.  [:D]


Like I said, right thread, right time.




erieangel -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 9:07:15 PM)

But gentrification doesn't really do a whole to solve the problem faced by those already living in deep poverty, now does it. If somebody living in deep poverty can't figure out how to cover up a broken window, how are they supposed to figure out to go out and find a JOB? How to land that JOB and, perhaps most importantly, how to keep that JOB?

Believe me, I face this every day with some of the guys I work with. Many of them never had jobs as teenagers, for various reasons and now that they need to figure out a way to support themselves, especially since PA has ended general assistance, they don't know the first thing to do. I teach them how to line up references who will tell an employer good things about them, teach them how to fill out applications...but it doesn't stop there. Once an application is submitted, the real work begins. I have to provide them with encouragement to keep calling businesses where they'd applied to see if there are openings, if they can have an interview, please. One guy called TGI Friday's every 2-3 days for 2 weeks and was ready to give up. I said "NO! The manager hasn't told you to stop calling, so keep calling." He called that day and was asked to go in for an interview. He said afterward that he doesn't think he got a job, but they want him back next week to speak with the general manager. I explained to him that was a good sign.
He thought all he had to apply at places and sit back until somebody called him. He also thought if he wasn't hired at the end of that first interview, he wasn't going get the job. I think he's got the job. I'll have to start teaching him about a strong work ethic.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 10:13:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
But gentrification doesn't really do a whole to solve the problem faced by those already living in deep poverty, now does it. If somebody living in deep poverty can't figure out how to cover up a broken window, how are they supposed to figure out to go out and find a JOB? How to land that JOB and, perhaps most importantly, how to keep that JOB?


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
    Ok, we'll assume the landlord is a scumbag who won't fix the window properly, but what the fuck? If the hole in the window lets in a steady stream of frigid air all night long, COVER THE MOTHERFUCKING HOLE! A couple pieces of scrap cardboard, duck tape, maybe a few plastic bags sandwiched in for insulation? 3 minutes? The guy driving the car our intrepid reporter is riding in, is a full-time employee of an agency that is supposed to mentor young people, to help them develop the skills to move out of poverty, and they are all sitting in the car, talking about how cold it is in the house.


Erieangel, Heretic called out the agency employee for not showing these people what to do. The agency's job is mentoring people to help them develop skills? How is it this guy doesn't, at the very least, tell the kid to "cover the hole?" This employee might need some mentoring.

If gentrification doesn't work, and this mentoring program doesn't work (as is obvious), what does work? What is it that everyone is missing? Wouldn't my suggestion of putting them to work for the government help them figure out how to find, land and keep a job?




tweakabelle -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 10:44:30 PM)

quote:

Please help me understand how what you said was different.


Erieangel has already addressed some of the points you raised most eloquently in post #55.

As I understand it, a "recovery" is not "an individual act" but a series of decisions, habits behaviours etc repeated (often daily) over a long period of time. The recognition that one may have a problem, and the decision to do something about it might be individual choices but they initiate a recovery, they don't constitute the recovery. Success in recoveries in measured in years.

My observation, and the view of almost all the literature I have read on the subject, is that successful recovery without a suitable support system is a forlorn possibility.




TheHeretic -> RE: Poverty programs (8/22/2012 11:03:22 PM)

That's cool, Erie.  I know someone who does a very similar sort of job here.  The last time I talked with him, he was working harder than the client, to keep a roof over her head, when her SSI attorney dropped the ball, and screwed up her GR housing eligibility.  I work with a hell of a lot of program participants from across the fed/state/county spectrum.  Good luck to your guy, but only he is going to get himself up in the morning, and wash his hands after using the restroom.  "Your attitude is everything," is what I would say to him.

Again, no, gentrifying a neighborhood isn't going to heal the toxic community that is disrupted by the process.  Mixed income zoning requirements, mitigation requirements for new development, in the form of parks, grants, and maybe a senior center, can ease the transition for those who remain in the neighborhood, as a new community starts to grow there.  Yep.  It's really going to suck for some people.  But I bet it won't suck any more, and maybe a lot less, than being part of such a cancerous hell.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Poverty programs (8/23/2012 4:31:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Please help me understand how what you said was different.

Erieangel has already addressed some of the points you raised most eloquently in post #55.
As I understand it, a "recovery" is not "an individual act" but a series of decisions, habits behaviours etc repeated (often daily) over a long period of time. The recognition that one may have a problem, and the decision to do something about it might be individual choices but they initiate a recovery, they don't constitute the recovery. Success in recoveries in measured in years.
My observation, and the view of almost all the literature I have read on the subject, is that successful recovery without a suitable support system is a forlorn possibility.


I'm not arguing that a support system is unnecessary, and neither was Heretic. I agree the easiest recovery pathway (which does not mean it's easy) includes a very strong support system. I would not agree that a recovery has a good chance of happening regardless of the support system if the individual is not willing or open to changing.

It's follows the adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."




mons -> RE: Poverty programs (8/23/2012 5:47:11 AM)

op

Get over obama please

mons




Sanity -> RE: Poverty programs (8/23/2012 5:54:40 AM)


The most effective support systems are self funded and meet in church basements on a weekly or biweekly basis

Churches that government didnt build btw

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I'm not arguing that a support system is unnecessary, and neither was Heretic. I agree the easiest recovery pathway (which does not mean it's easy) includes a very strong support system. I would not agree that a recovery has a good chance of happening regardless of the support system if the individual is not willing or open to changing.

It's follows the adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."





Musicmystery -> RE: Poverty programs (8/23/2012 6:27:15 AM)

. . . . but does give preferencial tax treatment to . . .




mnottertail -> RE: Poverty programs (8/23/2012 6:36:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The most effective support systems are self funded and meet in church basements on a weekly or biweekly basis

Churches that government didnt build btw

[


Really, please tell me how that can possibly be true.
What did these churches pay in taxes for the use of our roads, bridges, wealth gathering, and so on?

They built their little systems of skimming and fleecing the feeble-minded on our backs. 




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