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What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 8:19:12 AM

Charles6682

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From: Saint Pete,FL
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I'll be the first to admit,I wasn't always a fan of the word "slave".Even though I am a proud submissive,I always fell short of calling myself a slave.The reason for me was the word slave itself and how the word gets used.When I think of the word slave,I am reminded about the dark history "slavery" has with this nation.The word "slavery" in other parts of the world.However,I realize the word slave in this lifestyle has a whole different meaning.

I've heard the term "Consensual slavery" before.Which to me sounds about right.The 2 words almost seem at odds with each other but when defining the term "slave" in this lifestyle,the 2 words seem to go together quite well.Has anyone else in this lifestyle struggled with this term before?

I know I am a proud submissive.Now I have come to the point where I accept the fact that deep down,l am a slave.I guess my main struggle was just trying to define the word right that makes the most sense.Consensual slavery I feel better defines me.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 8/30/2012 8:21:54 AM >

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 8:30:59 AM

nephandi

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Greetings

Well the use of the word slave is rather debated in the BDSM lifestyle, some use it for everything, bottoms, machinists, sub, they just well find it to be a sexy word. Others use the slave to refer to those that live as close to slavery that they can legally, people who willingly sign over their entire lie to their Masters, now off course they can legally leave at any time, but often through training a dependency is created, and with dedication then you can get at least to some degree to the point where the Master own the slave even if it is not a legal ownership.

To me the word slave means someone who is in a TPE relationship where they have given their entire lives into the hands of another, the law might not bind them to be slaves, but in essence they are for in their hearts and soul they are the property of their Masters. I do not know if that makes any sense at all but that is the best I can do to explain it.

I wish you well

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Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to Charles6682)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 8:53:26 AM

JeffBC

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give or take what nephandi said.

Overall I think it means nothing to be a "slave". The term itself means anything and everything within the BDSM community and even if there was a solid definition I'd have to ask "so what?" I think it means a LOT to be in a happy, mutually fulfilling relationship. "M/s" is just a descriptive label to hang onto it. My question to you... the guy who's apparently been pondering this... is, "Now that you've decided you're a 'slave' what does that term mean to you and how does that realization change your life in any way at all?"

Insofar as the historical connotations of the word "slave" we could rathole on that forever. But let's just leave it at something like, "in some places and times the word slave is what we'd call 'employee' nowadays. It was an accepted, normal and fairly fluid part of the culture." The word, stripped of it's modern day horror, simply means an owned human. Nowadays in modern America we call them debtors and almost everyone is one.

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 8:59:53 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Overall I think it means nothing to be a "slave". The term itself means anything and everything within the BDSM community and even if there was a solid definition I'd have to ask "so what?" I think it means a LOT to be in a happy, mutually fulfilling relationship. "M/s" is just a descriptive label to hang onto it. My question to you... the guy who's apparently been pondering this... is, "Now that you've decided you're a 'slave' what does that term mean to you and how does that realization change your life in any way at all?"

I agree with this. It means nothing to us. I don't believe in consentual slavery and we don't really care about labels as long as our relationship is happy and working for us.

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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 9:01:57 AM

nephandi

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Greetings

Hell even in the legal sense the meaning of slave is not completely agreed upon, for example can a wife in Afghanistan be called a slave, she is most often bought by her husband and sold by her father, her husband have complete control of her life, up and including the right to beat her or deny her food if he wish and she have no say in her life, and yet she is technically a citizen of her nation. In ancient Rome slaves actually did have rights under allot of the time the empire stood, they where property but they did have rights. What about serfs, they where not direct property but they where not free to leave the land they lived on unless they had the permission of their liege lord, or what about a single mother of three who have no choice but to continue her job for in this economy to loose her job would mean disaster for her children and chances are not so great to find a new one quickly enough so her boss have enormous power over her. Or what about prisoners several places in USA who are used for manual labor they have no choice but to do and which they do not get paid for. Allot of people argue who of the examples above and countless other examples should be called slaves.

I do not see a problem using the word slave on someone who live their life as if owned by another, even if that slavery is entered into willingly and the slave can leave at any time if he or she wishes to, is it historic slavery? No, is it legal slavery? No but can it be seen as a form of slavery? Yes I think so at least.

I wish you well.

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 9:30:11 AM

Kana

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Slave to me means she's mine, property to do with as I wish.
She technically has no rights, no refusals. Her only choice is to obey or not.
She has one privilege-the door is always open.
That's it.

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 9:47:53 AM

myotherself

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Slave to me means she's mine, property to do with as I wish.
She technically has no rights, no refusals. Her only choice is to obey or not.
She has one privilege-the door is always open.
That's it.

That's pretty much how we work it too.

Thankfully, unlike days of old, we get to choose who we give our lives over to.

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There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to Kana)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 10:02:17 AM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

quote:

Slave to me means she's mine, property to do with as I wish.
She technically has no rights, no refusals. Her only choice is to obey or not.
She has one privilege-the door is always open.
That's it.

That sounds like a good definition of consensual slavery to me :D

I wish you well

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to Kana)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 11:15:22 AM

LadyPact

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Using fast reply.

This has the potential to stir up some shit, but this is My opinion as I see the matter. It's not the popular position. I'm stating that up front because I have no desire to pepper every other sentence with "in My opinion."

The debate about the word and the negative associations aside, slave/slavery is one of those wonderful terms in the BDSM dictionary that I tend to associate with those who are living that kind of life. I'm not real big on anybody who pronounces themselves a slave (or a Master, or poly when it comes to it) when they have no first hand experience in living that way. A person might think they are inclined to take a certain role in a relationship but until the rubber meets the road what they think and what they have shown they can do are two different things.

As to the term itself, no, I've never had a problems with it. I am one of those folks who does associate the word with more power given over when terming something M/s, rather than D/s. Yes, when looking at different people's dynamics, they may drawn lines in the same place and use different terms. Since the line I use is based on My personal experience, I know how I use it in regard to how much authority I have over someone.

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(in reply to Charles6682)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 11:32:35 AM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Yes, when looking at different people's dynamics, they may drawn lines in the same place and use different terms. Since the line I use is based on My personal experience, I know how I use it in regard to how much authority I have over someone.

I so agree with this and find it even more complicated. When I look closely at other people's relationships it becomes stunningly obvious that they are not the same as mine. So not only are the lines drawn in different places, but they're also drawn on completely different maps. I've kind of settled into a "I know it when I see it" sort of view. For whatever reasons, some of the couples I know seem "total" to me and others "not so much". A great example from my real life is a couple where she's not all that obedient (by my standards) yet in the end he gets his way and there are a few oddball exclusions like "head shaving" which exist in a much larger sea of "he gets his way". For me, at least, the exclusions and the momentary disobedience are just not big enough for me to ignore the remainder so I tend to see them as "M/s". I could never justify that assessment to anyone else. It's just "it feels that way to me"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 11:44:17 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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I dread to think what you'd classify us as Jeff.

I'm not sure I can answer the OP's question because I don't know what I consider myself to be. For me personally, I never saw a clear line between 'sub' and 'slave' and it never occurred to me to question which one I might be. I think in some senses we are 'Master/slave' because he has ultimate authority and expects obedience. In other senses we don't appear to be Master slave at all because I have a whole heap of autonomy and he delegates big chunks of decision making to me.

So I suppose the meaning of 'slave' to me is 'something other people define themselves as, indicating a deep level of submission to another'.

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Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 11:49:33 AM

Restyles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

. Nowadays in modern America we call them debtors and almost everyone is one.

This makes no sense, and in fact it could be argued in another thread that it is the lender that is the slave. The debtor has already received something of value, and the lender is "enslaved" to the debtors willingness/ability to repay.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 12

RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 12:13:44 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
I dread to think what you'd classify us as Jeff.

Happy? Lucky? Oh wait.. you meant a BDSM label.

Here, I'll go ahead and say it. My sense is that you two are much like Carol and I... not as fully fleshed out of course but on a similar path. The questions I normally ask in these situations are,

"When was the last time you held firm with 'no' when he was firm with 'yes'?" If it was a long time ago and/or you can't even think why you'd do such a thing then I call it M/s.

Are there exclusions to his authority that are outside the realm you would both think of as kitten stomping? If not, then I call it M/s.

The real gold standard (for me, of course) is the "would you strip in the restaurant thread?" which is really a way to say, "Do you trust your partner more than the evidence of your own senses and more than your own notions of right & wrong?" If so, then it's A+ M/s by my lights -- M/s fueled by a massive (and hopefully well placed) amount of mutual trust and respect. Somewhere there-ish is where I start seeing the reality of "internal enslavement" (as opposed to the crock on that website).

Insofar as all your nuance, all real couples that I know have it. I just think it tends to get stripped from online discussions an awful lot. So I ignore your nuance and even sympathize with it.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 12:27:11 PM

TNDommeK

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I was always under the impression that a sub could say "no" at any given time and a slave obeyed without question. Of course, the slave could physically say no. And as Kana said...there is the door. This is kinda what I agree with as well.

But then so many of you have made valid points, that I just don't know anymore,lol. I never saw the "would you strip in a restaurant" thread but I bet it was interesting to say the least. I feel the slave should do what is told without question and trust that the owner/Master or whatever only has the best intentions and would never allow harm or anything bad to come to the slave. In this house we are a medium protocol house, I would say. But the girls are slaves. So that label works for Him.

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 12:35:16 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
I feel the slave should do what is told without question and trust that the owner/Master or whatever only has the best intentions and would never allow harm or anything bad to come to the slave.

Masters view is if I did something without question that I knew would turn out bad or have the possibility of turning out bad, he'd be very upset with me. (ie: he wanted to trade the BMW in for something else last month) He can absolutely have the best intentions and not want to allow harm, but he's not infallible.

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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 2:31:29 PM

tazzygirl

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Dont get hung up on labels. Know when you are a slave? When your owner says you are.

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 7:22:21 PM

graceadieu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

I was always under the impression that a sub could say "no" at any given time and a slave obeyed without question. Of course, the slave could physically say no. And as Kana said...there is the door. This is kinda what I agree with as well.

I'm sure that distinction is true for some people. But I'm not sure what's submissive about your dynamic if you always just say you don't want to do it.

For us.... I know he's not going to kick me out if I say no, but it will harm our relationship. The whole power exchange thing is predicated on mutual trust - me trusting him to lead me sensibly, and him trusting me to follow his lead. If I start refusing to obey (or he starts giving crazy harmful orders), it would erode our trust and undermine the relationship.

(in reply to TNDommeK)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 7:40:39 PM

SacredDepravity

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Well, I am secure enough to admit that I struggled heavily with this word for about two years straight. I ranted and raged against it over and over again to the frustration of many friends, my then master, and myself. I was comfortable with all my other labels: submissive, masochist, bi, poly, whatever, but that word was larger than life to me. It seemed so extreme…so absolute…so…final. I spent a long time fighting with this word and this is where I landed.

The more I looked at it, the more a very clear dichotomy emerged. This word was really just a label. In reality it could only be placed in the realm of a concept, ideal, or subjective interpretation. He could have called me “fluffypookins” and if that word meant to him the essence of who and what I was and properly defined our relationship in his mind, then what did I care? It’s just a word.

At the same time, there is the darker side of the moon. This is a word that had meaning between us. It WAS absolute, it was meant as final, and it most certainly entailed some pretty extreme concepts. It was to mean as close to a total abdication of control and choice to another and I had better treat that word with the deference and, yes, fear, that it deserved. This was not playtime. The end game was the complete transfer of everything about me to this other person. I had better be damn good and sure I chose this person carefully. I wanted the right driver at the wheel. That person had to be tall enough to ride this ride. Ultimately, I chose poorly and the consequences were steep. I doubt some things I will ever recover fully. People want to talk like this is just a term of endearment or a pigeonhole tactic. People want to talk about consent and choices. I can promise internal enslavement is real. I went there. I can promise that the choices change. I can promise that the stakes are higher (provided we are even talking about the same thing).

I don’t have any issue with the historical context of slavery anymore. This is not what we are talking about. No matter how “slave” or “owned” we feel, legally there is no room for slavery in the here and now society of which I am a part. I am free to leave if I wish. Historical slavery starts with nonconsent and ends with clear exercising of consent to REMOVE consent. This slavery starts with consent to STAY and ends with a clear lack of desire and, perhaps, ability to leave. This is opposite world in my view and has no resemblance to historical slavery whatsoever except the word itself.

Like I said, I struggled for a long time to come to this and I am sure anyone could find grounds to dispute any of it, but this is how I sleep at night and what guides my search now. I am looking for a tall enough, excellent driver. Until then, my hands remain firmly on the wheel.

SD

(in reply to graceadieu)

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 9:56:55 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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Think of the definition of slavery in it's most historical meaning and I'd say we come pretty close to that definition except the only difference is that I consented once and once only and I have the freedom to leave if I no longer wish to be his slave. Other than that, if he tells me to do something and I don't, I get punished. I am his chattel.

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Everything has changed

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RE: What does is really mean to be a slave? - 8/30/2012 11:59:26 PM

UllrsIshtar

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For me...

A slave is somebody primarily ruled by an external force.
A non-slave is somebody primarily ruled by their own self.

If an external force habitually is able to override your will, by the force of their own, you're a slave. Regardless of D/s or M/s labels.
If you are primarily self-determinate and independent in your thoughts and actions, you're not a slave. Regardless of D/s or M/s labels.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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