RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (Full Version)

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UllrsIshtar -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:25:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I had choice. I could not do the ants; I did the grasshopper. Crunchy, yes, but texture is not so much an issue with me. It wasn't bad at all, once you got past the intense crunchiness issue and the knowledge you were eating, well, a frigging grasshopper.

If I had to eat one to live, oh, no problem.



I like grasshoppers, they're nutty. I've had a variety of insects, both live and fried maggots, crickets, ants, spiders, slugs, grubs as well as worms... but grasshoppers are some of my favorites. I don't like the heads though... too bitter.




LaTigresse -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:27:58 PM)

I want to try tarantula. I've heard they taste like crab or lobster.




epiphiny43 -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:31:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt


All life is precious, human, animal, plant, insect. What exactly makes one life more precious than another? Only one's perception.

Modern humans, for the most part, have little understanding of what has to die so they can live.

We see life's hierarchy with insects on the bottom with no conception that w/o those insects life as we know it would not exist. We would not exist.

You know those plants I say good morning to? A good half are herbs, destined for my kitchen. I celebrate (as I should) everything I eat. It's part of being a spiritual being.

To say someone is not a spiritual being b/c they eat meat is quite obtuse, IMO.

BTW: Chocolate covered insects are actually *quite* good, but I admit, I had to be coaxed.


This is not an indictment of vegetarianism, it's more a tautology. ALL values are "Only one's perception." The discussion is why the differences in perception? How do each of us come to our values and more important, change them after consideration? Hopefully most of us are not simply programmed for life by our early childhood exposure to existing cultural practices? Forums and other 'market places of ideas' are for each to present values and considerations so that others may see alternatives and hopefully find better solutions to individual and community challenges? This thread is a nice example?
Celebrating all you eat is equally valued in New Guinea cultures that eat relative's brains (And have interesting CNS prion diseases from it) and Early Polynesian and elsewhere consumption of enemy's vital organs to gain the powers the deceased had. Again, only one's perception? Not knocking being aware as possible of what one consumes, just enlarging the field of discussion? Spirituality is a pretty big tent?
Many cultures that saw and celebrated the spirits in every object, not only living forms, also devastated local ecologies about as fast as any other. Define your goals and your values should promote them?

Sorry, an edit attempt destroyed a post and it's meaning. Leaving what I can reconstruct.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:35:38 PM)

Ah...you're going for a bit more sophisticated on this issue.

Okaysies.




needlesandpins -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:42:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

we do not live on grain alone though. talking as things are now, it takes far more veg to fill a person than it does protien. hence to have everyone as vegan we would need alot more growing space. not only that but alot of veg is seasonal, meat isn't. veg loses it's nutrients far quicker than meat too, so to continually grow a varitity of veg to suit everyone is not feasable.



Sorry, still not true. A family of 4 can easily self-sustain in a moderate climate of less than 1 acre of land, with plenty of excess fruits and veggies left over. But only if they don't raise meat on that land. If they do try to add self-sustainable large livestock meat consumption into that mix (at 1/3 pound of meat a person a day), they need a bare minimum of 5 acres of grazable land.
It's also not hard at all to grow winter veggies in a suitable variety to easily live off, and do so extremely well.

If every person currently alive eats 1/2 of meat every day, we wouldn't have any farmland left for ANY veggie production at all. Feeding that same amount of people a strictly vegan diet would have us have farmland left over.


that's all cool and all. however, what happens to all the farm stock we already have? seriously, there isn't enough usable land to mass feed everyone in the world veggies. people don't just live in good growing areas where land produces all the nutrients we need. also barn kept animals mean that you maths are wrong. 90% of the uk's beef is reared in barns dispite what our government, and supermarkets would have us believe. most of our crops have failed to yield this year due to the amount of rain we've had. now also don't forget the amount of land current being turned over to bio fuels. in the US there may be thousands of acres of good growing land. in the UK there isn't. certain soil types only sustain certain crops.

not unless you have a plan that gives each family the acreage they need i think you will find that your theory doesn't hold water. if it did we'd be eating far more veg than we do.

however, on the flip side. i guess if everyone stopped eating meat it would all die off eventually. thus free up the land you think is already available.

needles




UllrsIshtar -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:43:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I want to try tarantula. I've heard they taste like crab or lobster.


I've heard that too. I actually had a chance to try fried tarantula in Thailand, but my then boyfriend, who has an extreme spider phobia, threatened not to kiss me the rest of the trip if I did, so I never have.
I'll definitely try it when I go back though.




needlesandpins -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:47:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I want to try tarantula. I've heard they taste like crab or lobster.


I've heard that too. I actually had a chance to try fried tarantula in Thailand, but my then boyfriend, who has an extreme spider phobia, threatened not to kiss me the rest of the trip if I did, so I never have.
I'll definitely try it when I go back though.


the mear thought of that turns my stomach. i do wonder though just what i would eat if hungry enough to do so. most of what the chinese eat came about due to a huge shortage of food. being brought up with these things i suppose means you see it as normal, so no ickieness.

i'll stick with my roast beef and yorkshire puds though ta very much.

needles




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:54:53 PM)

The devil made me do this...

[image]http://i.imgur.com/M9rUY.jpg[/image]




SpaceSpank -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:55:42 PM)

The problem this sort of argument ignores is it's not "what" first world countries are eating that is the issue. It's how it is produced, and on what scale.

There are similar issues with plants as well. Look at all the corn produced in the USA. it's murder on the land. We don't "just" use that for people, nor is it "just" used for feed. It's used for bio fuels, for corn starch (since they make it cheaper than sugar), it's used for animal feed, for human consumption, and probably others too.

The issue is that people want things in large quantities for lower prices. Some have the luxury to choose, others do not. You need to address those concerns before you can really fight the system answering that demand.

And as others noted, crops are complicated for sustainability even in more ideal soils, the less ideal, the more complicated it is. You also need people to tend to them. Would your average 9-5 2 income family have the ability to tend to those crops AND work their 40+ hour workday?
How about the working poor who may have 2-3 jobs and barely get enough free time during the week to get a solid 6 hours of sleep? Regardless of eating meat or not, most people simply lack the space and time to actually be fully sustainable like that. In urban areas, people don't even have yards at all, and often in suburban areas they don't even have an acre.

There's so many issues that contribute to the way the food industry has become, that you're not going to "fix" it when it's basically doing nothing but meeting the demand placed on it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Both modern vegetarianism and traditional Hindu practices are a bit more sophisticated than as advertised above. They value life on a complexity scale with intelligence as a basic essential. Hindu also seems to differentiate between phyla of life, Vertebrate/mammals at the top, plants as the essential base that feeds all above. Also a widely held modern value. Eating only synthesized materials is currently impossible and has consequences for existing life far beyond eating the plants necessary for a reasonable diet.
We may say eating whales or chimpanzee is wrong because they are in the ball park of our intelligence or genetic cousins. Those who disagree have issues justifying why humans with even less intelligence aren't on the menu? (Dolcet, anyone?) Eating as low on the food chain as possible is an ethical position that holds the carrying capacity of local and world wide life support systems as worthy of the smallest foot print each of us can make. American consumption values hold that wealth alone justifies whatever effects the rich can afford no matter what it does now or in the future to human community or larger ecosystem. Peoples everywhere are paying dearly for the choices first world shoppers have at any supermarket.
Bubble heads who will eat cows but not 'cute' animals they know only from Disney animation features aren't part of any adult discussion anyway.





CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:00:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Another thread took an ugly turn, from being bitten by a turkey to the cruelty of eating animals.

With apologies for quoting Ted Nugent for the title of this one, what say any of you?

We have eaten meat since (or maybe before) we discovered fire. The end result of any animal raised for food is, they die. Does it really matter what happens before then? Nicer living conditions? Being petted? Maybe if you want to eat meat, you have to raise your own?





I want to take it back to this... yes, personally I do believe it matters. I do not eat meat, that was an ethical decision made almost two decades ago. The primary aspect which turned me towards this decision is that I disagree with the factory agribusiness on many levels. One, I do not like the corporation element which has turned food production into a model which is primarily focused on profit margins over the health risks, damage caused. This is not only with livestock but also with the factory farming and genetically alteration of other food sources as well. I have nothing against profit but when that is the only motivation, then there is something out of balance. Be it food production, health care "industry" or subcontracting military work...

Yes, I am opposed to the treatment of animals in feed lots, the fact that the majority of antibiotics manufactured go to livestock, living conditions, etc. I believe that these conditions have been caused by the centralization of "manufacturing" and distribution. There are only a handful of processing plants for livestock, where before it was regional and local. Personally, I think that the food industry is just one aspect which is symptomatic of our culture as a whole... one of which an economy is based upon consumption.

I think that a lot of areas, food being one, would benefit from a more sustainable model... and that a lot of money in marketing has been done to provide an image of happy cows, lazily eating grass in a field because that is what people would like to believe their meat comes from. I worked in a meat department for over a year and there aren't even butchers in grocery stores for the most part any longer, the meat comes in cases, cut to section and sent from a distribution plant. I recall hearing several things talking about the conditions of the workers for such companies as Tyson, Smithfield etc... how slaughter houses have gone from one of the best places to work to one of the most dangerous occupations. So, this type of model is not only ethically questionable for the treatment of the livestock but it is detrimental to everyone from farmers contracted to them, to the individuals who work for the processing plants.

So, the one thing that I do believe, is that people should be aware of where their things come from, be it material goods or food items. Like I said it isn't just livestock... look at the damage that Monsanto has done to farmers in India for example, or even Canada.

... or the backlash that Nike here in Beaverton received when the conditions of their production facilities in China and then Viet Nam were discovered. The one way that people have to make their interests known is by how they choose to spend their money and I am all to aware of what it means to have to budget and live check to check and not quite make it (which is why you twue subs need to send me stuff) but there has to be a balance somewhere. I also know that people are more aware, more interested if not where there food is sourced, at least what is in it... and there is money to be made which is why organic/ free range/ local is one of the largest growth markets currently in the grocery field.

Also, I think one of the things missing is the sense of a loss of respect for "people" as a whole, which is why large entities can act with seemingly few consequences or regulations with essentially the government's blessing...

Shrug, just my two cents without stepping on anyone's toes.










ARIES83 -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:00:46 PM)

You ate? A goats peen??
.... What did it taste like [sm=poke.gif]
Ehehe, the worst I've done so far is
Crumbed Lambs brains, with chips and
gravy and lots of pepper, I actually loved
it.

-ARIES




SpaceSpank -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:02:07 PM)

I always have fun squicking people out.

Most of the non fish seafood people it are essentially sea bugs.

A lobsters closest cousin on land is, if I recall, a common roach.
Crustaceans (crab, lobster, shrimp, etc), spiders, and many other insects are all arthropods after all.

As you noted, it's all a matter of perception. You grew up thinking of one as food, the other as pests or gross things. In some cultures both are looked at as food.


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins


the mear thought of that turns my stomach. i do wonder though just what i would eat if hungry enough to do so. most of what the chinese eat came about due to a huge shortage of food. being brought up with these things i suppose means you see it as normal, so no ickieness.

i'll stick with my roast beef and yorkshire puds though ta very much.

needles





tj444 -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:03:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
not unless you have a plan that gives each family the acreage they need i think you will find that your theory doesn't hold water. if it did we'd be eating far more veg than we do.

There are different ways of gardening without the need for acreage.. square foot/intensive gardening in most backyards would provide much of a families food.. IF they were willing to put in the effort... In BC (Canada) many people had food gardens in their yards (some even in their front yard), my time spent so far here in the US,.. I have yet to see even a single food garden in anyone's yard.. I am sure some must exist (I see veg seeds in Home Depot) but I have not actually seen any.. I have seen lots of backyard pools tho.. [8|]

People can also have vertical gardens, indoor or outdoor hydroponic gardens or some variation, balcony garden, or rooftop gardens.. I think most people either dont think in those terms or they just arent interested in learning how or just plain lazy/impatient, since its so much easier to go to the grocery store..

I will be buying a lot in the next week or two and i am going to plant as much as i can, and I think i might experiment with a backyard fish or shrimp pond too and grow my own fishies/shrimps.. nom nom..




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:04:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

You ate? A goats peen??
.... What did it taste like [sm=poke.gif]
Ehehe, the worst I've done so far is
Crumbed Lambs brains, with chips and
gravy and lots of pepper, I actually loved
it.

-ARIES

Oh hell no I didn't eat it. It showed up on my Facebook and I figured it was divine intervention and meant to be shared on this thread.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:11:30 PM)

I call lobsters 'roaches of the sea'! And eat them when ever possible, too. Crustaceans are BUGSES or spiders.

I am a textures person though, so crickets & grasshoppers are not appealing the way grubs are.




needlesandpins -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:12:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
not unless you have a plan that gives each family the acreage they need i think you will find that your theory doesn't hold water. if it did we'd be eating far more veg than we do.

There are different ways of gardening without the need for acreage.. square foot/intensive gardening in most backyards would provide much of a families food.. IF they were willing to put in the effort... In BC (Canada) many people had food gardens in their yards (some even in their front yard), my time spent so far here in the US,.. I have yet to see even a single food garden in anyone's yard.. I am sure some must exist (I see veg seeds in Home Depot) but I have not actually seen any.. I have seen lots of backyard pools tho.. [8|]

People can also have vertical gardens, indoor or outdoor hydroponic gardens or some variation, balcony garden, or rooftop gardens.. I think most people either dont think in those terms or they just arent interested in learning how or just plain lazy/impatient, since its so much easier to go to the grocery store..

I will be buying a lot in the next week or two and i am going to plant as much as i can, and I think i might experiment with a backyard fish or shrimp pond too and grow my own fishies/shrimps.. nom nom..


i agree totally with you in that growing doesn't take personal acreage. but to feed the world en mass it does take the acreage. it would also have to be cheaper than it is now too. again, not sure how it is over there, but veggies here are expencive, and the average poor family could not exist alone on fresh veg.

i'd love to know how the garden fishies/shrimp go too.

needles




epiphiny43 -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:20:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
without killing most animals on the planet we wouldn't be able to grow enough plant life to support the entire world. those pesky animals take up far too much of the growing land.



That's actually not true. It takes about 15 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of beef, which means we need FAR more farmland to raise meat that we do to raise veggies.

If everybody would switch to being vegan, the land needed for agriculture could easily be cut in half, if not drastically less than that.


we do not live on grain alone though. talking as things are now, it takes far more veg to fill a person than it does protien. hence to have everyone as vegan we would need alot more growing space. not only that but alot of veg is seasonal, meat isn't. veg loses it's nutrients far quicker than meat too, so to continually grow a varitity of veg to suit everyone is not feasable.

needles

You need to study nutrition and agriculture in the modern age far more thoroughly to join productively in the discussion. Your impressions of ecological and energy needs for consumable animal protein compared to equal nutrition from vegetable sources are Wholly reversed, actually about 10 to one if favor of vegetable. Most everything a cow eats could be consumed by humans, and most does't get turned into meat. Or weigh the bags of pellets it takes to grow a rabbit or chicken to edible maturity. Think through the energy budget!
Present population trends strongly indicate water availability alone looks probable to end large scale meat production and consumption by 2050 without serious military/economic domination of growing regions to impose grazing practices on starving nations.




CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:21:52 PM)

*This thread has been an interesting example of Paradigm theory*

(See what you started Miss No Jelly)...




needlesandpins -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:24:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
without killing most animals on the planet we wouldn't be able to grow enough plant life to support the entire world. those pesky animals take up far too much of the growing land.



That's actually not true. It takes about 15 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of beef, which means we need FAR more farmland to raise meat that we do to raise veggies.

If everybody would switch to being vegan, the land needed for agriculture could easily be cut in half, if not drastically less than that.


we do not live on grain alone though. talking as things are now, it takes far more veg to fill a person than it does protien. hence to have everyone as vegan we would need alot more growing space. not only that but alot of veg is seasonal, meat isn't. veg loses it's nutrients far quicker than meat too, so to continually grow a varitity of veg to suit everyone is not feasable.

needles

You need to study nutrition and agriculture in the modern age far more thoroughly to join productively in the discussion. Your impressions of ecological and energy needs for consumable animal protein compared to equal nutrition from vegetable sources are Wholly reversed, actually about 10 to one if favor of vegetable. Most everything a cow eats could be consumed by humans, and most does't get turned into meat. Or weigh the bags of pellets it takes to grow a rabbit or chicken to edible maturity. Think through the energy budget!
Present population trends strongly indicate water availability alone looks probable to end large scale meat production and consumption by 2050 without serious military/economic domination of growing regions to impose grazing practices on starving nations.


if you are talking to me i have a degree in agriculture, horticulture and animal husbandry. as well as being trained in health and nutrition for my job in care.

needles




tj444 -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 4:26:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
i agree totally with you in that growing doesn't take personal acreage. but to feed the world en mass it does take the acreage. it would also have to be cheaper than it is now too. again, not sure how it is over there, but veggies here are expencive, and the average poor family could not exist alone on fresh veg.


I posted this article on the other thread.. according to some, that is exactly what will happen (due to water shortage).. but if veggies over there are expensive, then the meat must be even more expensive..

the original article- http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/aug/26/food-shortages-world-vegetarianism
"Scientists Predict The World's Population Will Become Vegetarian By 2050
A group of leading water scientists from around the world believe the world's population will have to completely switch to a vegetarian diet in 2050 because of food shortages, according to the Guardian.
As of now, most people eat 20 per cent of their protein from animal-based products and foods. However, scientists warn by 2050, this consumption number might have to drop down to five per cent to feed an extra two billion people expected to be alive, according to the research."
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/08/27/vegetarian-diet-scientist_n_1834182.html




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