RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it

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LaTigresse -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 1:56:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Not all diamonds are blood diamonds, either. And yes, she does. We all live on someone else's suffering. Every one of us. I do my tiny bit, but really? It doesn't matter in the bigger picture. I help the actual humans in my community. I think in these sorts of debates the bit I bolded bears repeating. Focus on what we CAN make a difference in. I don't think any of us can fully investigate every item we purchase. The metals in these computers we are using, are they all green and human abuse free? What about the plastics? Every single item we are surrounded by, completely green, conflict and human abuse free? I don't think it's possible. We each focus on what matters to us. Personally, I believe that the crusades we create in our doing good, are sometimes nearly as harmful as ignoring what we crusade against. It creates too negative of an energy. The pedestals we place ourselves on in our attempts to do good. I see it in many of the uber PC stuff that goes on in Iowa City. Eating chocolate that doesn't come from forced child slave labour isn't difficult. If it comes from a fair trade source, then you know it isn't coming from cocoa produced by child slave labour. And fair trade sourced chocolate will say so on the label. I don't see it as being a full investigation, to parallel your words. Quit being purposely dense.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 1:58:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I went to google and typed in 'the consumption of animal protein and it's evolutionary effect on the human brain'. A whole bunch of good stuff came up. If you are too lazy to manage that....god help you. You really seem to believe the worst of others. Is that really the best you can come up with? Was it worth the time it took to type it? As for believing the worst in others.....no. I actually think that most people will, given the oportunity, to do the right thing, as they see it. They will also usually take the path of least resistance and expend more energy trying to justify why.....than they might have doing otherwise. Granted, my world isn't full of sparkly pink hearts, but I am a realist. Actually, I'm referring to your continued snotty condescending comments to me. And I've seen you respond similarly to others for as long as I've noticed your posts.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:00:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Not all diamonds are blood diamonds, either. And yes, she does. We all live on someone else's suffering. Every one of us. I do my tiny bit, but really? It doesn't matter in the bigger picture. I help the actual humans in my community. I think in these sorts of debates the bit I bolded bears repeating. Focus on what we CAN make a difference in. I don't think any of us can fully investigate every item we purchase. The metals in these computers we are using, are they all green and human abuse free? What about the plastics? Every single item we are surrounded by, completely green, conflict and human abuse free? I don't think it's possible. We each focus on what matters to us. Personally, I believe that the crusades we create in our doing good, are sometimes nearly as harmful as ignoring what we crusade against. It creates too negative of an energy. The pedestals we place ourselves on in our attempts to do good. I see it in many of the uber PC stuff that goes on in Iowa City. Eating chocolate that doesn't come from forced child slave labour isn't difficult. If it comes from a fair trade source, then you know it isn't coming from cocoa produced by child slave labour. And fair trade sourced chocolate will say so on the label. I don't see it as being a full investigation, to parallel your words. Quit being purposely dense. You are the one choosing to focus on all human exploitation and deviating from the topic I brought up. I was bringing it back to my commentary. Once again, more snotty condescension. Oh well. The only thing I can do is walk away from this.

Baroana -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:00:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Not all diamonds are blood diamonds, either. And yes, she does. We all live on someone else's suffering. Every one of us. I do my tiny bit, but really? It doesn't matter in the bigger picture. I help the actual humans in my community. I think in these sorts of debates the bit I bolded bears repeating. Focus on what we CAN make a difference in. I don't think any of us can fully investigate every item we purchase. The metals in these computers we are using, are they all green and human abuse free? What about the plastics? Every single item we are surrounded by, completely green, conflict and human abuse free? I don't think it's possible. We each focus on what matters to us. Personally, I believe that the crusades we create in our doing good, are sometimes nearly as harmful as ignoring what we crusade against. It creates too negative of an energy. The pedestals we place ourselves on in our attempts to do good. I see it in many of the uber PC stuff that goes on in Iowa City. Eating chocolate that doesn't come from forced child slave labour isn't difficult. If it comes from a fair trade source, then you know it isn't coming from cocoa produced by child slave labour. And fair trade sourced chocolate will say so on the label. I don't see it as being a full investigation, to parallel your words. What about the myriad products that have some chocolate in them, but there is no way to know where it came from?

LaTigresse -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:01:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD Actually, I'm referring to your continued snotty condescending comments to me. And I've seen you respond similarly to others for as long as I've noticed your posts. Please feel free to quit noticing. It will not hurt my feelings.

needlesandpins -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:04:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 See? There is that implication that it's elite. Or we think it's elite. It could not be further from the truth. I feel no superiority to these fellow earthlings that is why I can't eat them they are my equals, it's that simple. I mean that sincerely. I love all animals not just "Pets" that is my gripe. People freak over the mistreatment of cats and dogs, yet the rape, and abuse of cows by artificial insemination and the theft of their children and milk, no big deal. Slaughtering them for lunch, hey no biggie, force feeding ducks and geese for foie gras, all good. Makes no sense to me. What is elite to me is greedy assholes dining on animals cruelly kept in dark cramped abattoirs their entire lives for some jerks dinner, that is elite. While I dine one beans and kale. you seem to forget something; animals eat other animals to survive, and while we may be more 'intellegent' than most other animals first and foremost we are just animals. your theory of us not being made to eat meat is silly. of course we are made to eat meat. our closest primate relative also eat meat. the only difference is that we have evolved enough to cook it to gain more from it. now as for all this animal rape you go on about. you can't serve a female anything that isn't in season. if she is in season she is driven to breed and doesn't gice a shit how it is done. ever seen a she cat flirt with a owner, and tart herself in front of them? i have. also you talk about animals as though they have the same thought processes as us. they don't except for a very small few like the elephant, or other large primates. most animals wean their young at around six months at the latest naturally. after that they couldn't give two chuffs what happens to that youngster as they are too busy bring up the next. other animals may not farm their food as we do, but only because they are not intelligent enough to do so. here's another thought for you; without killing most animals on the planet we wouldn't be able to grow enough plant life to support the entire world. those pesky animals take up far too much of the growing land. needles

LaTigresse -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:04:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD You are the one choosing to focus on all human exploitation and deviating from the topic I brought up. I was bringing it back to my commentary. Once again, more snotty condescension. Oh well. The only thing I can do is walk away from this. And I was commenting on the concept LadyHib brought up about products other than chocolate. You know, where you deviated from the actual topic of the thread.... I commented that it is nearly impossible to be sure that all of the things we use and consume are of the standards you demand of your chocolate. It is unfortunate that you were unable to follow that train of thought so yes, perhaps it is wise for you to walk away from the thread.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:12:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: needlesandpins without killing most animals on the planet we wouldn't be able to grow enough plant life to support the entire world. those pesky animals take up far too much of the growing land. That's actually not true. It takes about 15 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of beef, which means we need FAR more farmland to raise meat that we do to raise veggies. If everybody would switch to being vegan, the land needed for agriculture could easily be cut in half, if not drastically less than that.

VideoAdminTheta -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:15:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VideoAdminGamma Fast reply As in anything, everyone is entitled to your beliefs but when you belittle the beliefs of others on a personal level it borders on breaking rules and guidelines. If you cannot post with that in mind, then do not post. Thank you for being a part of CollarMe, VideoAdminGamma While trying to be nice, I am going to quote this and hope that you all understand that trying to be nice can only go so far. Heated debate is expected with some topics, but when it gets personal, we must take action. Please refrain from forcing a moderator's hand here. There will be no further warnings and after two mod warnings, this thread will be closed if this continues. Any personal attacks or anything against guidelines from this point on is subject to moderation. Please work with us. Thank you

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:17:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 I love all animals not just "Pets" that is my gripe. People freak over the mistreatment of cats and dogs, yet the rape, and abuse of cows by artificial insemination and the theft of their children and milk, no big deal. Slaughtering them for lunch, hey no biggie, force feeding ducks and geese for foie gras, all good. Makes no sense to me. What is elite to me is greedy assholes dining on animals cruelly kept in dark cramped abattoirs their entire lives for some jerks dinner, that is elite. While I dine one beans and kale. I don't make a distinction between "pets" and "food animals" I eat everything, regardless of its kind. Including insects and what's usually labeled "waste cuts" like liver, tongue and heart. I also don't eat food from animals that have been mistreated to create the food, such as foie gras, veal, or battery chicken eggs/meat. I try to make sure my food has lived as best it could, and I don't make some artificial distention between horse meat, rabbit meat, beef, and dog meat. Meat is meat, and the only thing I care about is "has it not been made to suffer needlessly?"

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:25:37 PM)
Wow. I am amazed at the passion shown in this thread. This is a subject that is kind of like the death penalty and abortion. No one is going to change their mind on it. I eat meat, and will continue to eat meat. If you choose not to, yay for you. If you can afford to only buy meat that is raised in paradise, more power to ya. I buy what is on sale, I get venison from friends when it is available. I do not apologize for that. If we could all have farms and raise our own foods, that would be great. It aint possible. The one comment that really threw me for a loop was something like "Every rare steak you eat spits in the tear stained face of a starving child" or something like that. Really? I bet that starving kid would love to have some safe meat to eat, to quiet his belly. Fanaticism about anything makes me just think you are nuts. If someone is all about the rights of animals, then I would imagine they would wear no leather, fur, eat nothing with a face or that came from something with a face. Otherwise, you have drawn your line where you think it belongs, and that is right for you. Do not try to convince me that your line is more right than mine. I live a good life, help my community, love the kids I work with, don't steal, try to show empathy to others and do my best to not hate. That is good enough for me, and I will not be made to feel like I am somehow a person below someone else, just because I eat meat.

DomKen -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:45:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen That is because the large human brain developed in response to our hunter/gatherer ancestors higher protein and higher fat diet compared to our much more vegetarian ancestors. Do tell. What is "higher protein". Just guessing, but I think he means MORE rather than 'superior'. More and more complete. All animal protein contains all the essential amino acids while plant proteins do not always provide all of the essentials and the quantity of protein in most plant matter digestable by humans is substantially less than an equivalent amount of meat.

LaTigresse -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 2:48:54 PM)
Another thing I was thinking as I was cooking. To use the idea that all life is precious as a reason why the consumption of meat is wrong, well in my mind, it should then be 'all life' for those persons. If all life is precious, then they would be equally passionately against the death penalty and abortion. However, that does not seem to always be the case. Therefore, in my mind hypocritical, and removes any validity from their position. It would seem that 'all life' is not always precious. Only the 'life' they believe worthy of being precious.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:02:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Another thing I was thinking as I was cooking. To use the idea that all life is precious as a reason why the consumption of meat is wrong, well in my mind, it should then be 'all life' for those persons. If all life is precious, then they would be equally passionately against the death penalty and abortion. However, that does not seem to always be the case. Therefore, in my mind hypocritical, and removes any validity from their position. It would seem that 'all life' is not always precious. Only the 'life' they believe worthy of being precious. Not only that, but they need to use farming practices that make sure they don't harm the various ecosystems in the earth. If you're a hardcore vegan who believes all forms of animals on this Earth are precious and should get the same amount of care and protection, you can't just put a tiller in the ground to plow your vegetable patch. Hell you couldn't even put a shovel in the ground because of the risk that would pose to killing worms. You couldn't eat anything but totally organic foods, because using pesticides killed animals for your food, which means that most all commercial growers are out, because most organic growers still use organic pesticides that kill animals. Vegans who buy produce commercially are condoning animals being killed for their food. You couldn't spay the wasp nest that took up housing in your siding, nor get ride of the black widow's web that you found under you're children's bed, because destroying those animal's houses (even if you didn't kill the animal in the process) wouldn't adhere to the "principal of equality" that got mentioned in Ayenne's "Earthling" video. When building a house, you'd have to make sure that every living being in the soil carefully got relocated, as you where building the foundation, which means that any digging equipment larger than a hand rack and hand shovel would be out. If you grew your own veggies, and a plant would succumb to a pest, you wouldn't be allowed to take action, including if that action was ripping out the plant to prevent the rest of your garden from becoming infected, because it wouldn't be treating the pest as an equal. Anything but that strict of an adherence to "caring for all living creatures" and I'm going to call complete bullshit on the vegan's position, because CLEARLY you they'd be taking a separatist's approach to the difference between pet - livestock - pest - insect. So what, pets and livestock deserve our protection, but pests and insects deserve to die!?!

needlesandpins -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:07:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: needlesandpins without killing most animals on the planet we wouldn't be able to grow enough plant life to support the entire world. those pesky animals take up far too much of the growing land. That's actually not true. It takes about 15 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of beef, which means we need FAR more farmland to raise meat that we do to raise veggies. If everybody would switch to being vegan, the land needed for agriculture could easily be cut in half, if not drastically less than that. we do not live on grain alone though. talking as things are now, it takes far more veg to fill a person than it does protien. hence to have everyone as vegan we would need alot more growing space. not only that but alot of veg is seasonal, meat isn't. veg loses it's nutrients far quicker than meat too, so to continually grow a varitity of veg to suit everyone is not feasable. needles

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:07:48 PM)
All life is precious, human, animal, plant, insect. What exactly makes one life more precious than another? Only one's perception. Modern humans, for the most part, have little understanding of what has to die so they can live. We see life's hierarchy with insects on the bottom with no conception that w/o those insects life as we know it would not exist. We would not exist. You know those plants I say good morning to? A good half are herbs, destined for my kitchen. I celebrate (as I should) everything I eat. It's part of being a spiritual being. To say someone is not a spiritual being b/c they eat meat is quite obtuse, IMO. BTW: Chocolate covered insects are actually quite good, but I admit, I had to be coaxed.

doctorgrey -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:15:11 PM)
I know the answer! *Soylent Green!* *DrG*

LaTigresse -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:15:45 PM)
I do remember trying them once as a child. My uncle brought me chocolate covered ants when he returned from Vietnam.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:21:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: needlesandpins we do not live on grain alone though. talking as things are now, it takes far more veg to fill a person than it does protien. hence to have everyone as vegan we would need alot more growing space. not only that but alot of veg is seasonal, meat isn't. veg loses it's nutrients far quicker than meat too, so to continually grow a varitity of veg to suit everyone is not feasable. Sorry, still not true. A family of 4 can easily self-sustain in a moderate climate of less than 1 acre of land, with plenty of excess fruits and veggies left over. But only if they don't raise meat on that land. If they do try to add self-sustainable large livestock meat consumption into that mix (at 1/3 pound of meat a person a day), they need a bare minimum of 5 acres of grazable land. It's also not hard at all to grow winter veggies in a suitable variety to easily live off, and do so extremely well. If every person currently alive eats 1/2 of meat every day, we wouldn't have any farmland left for ANY veggie production at all. Feeding that same amount of people a strictly vegan diet would have us have farmland left over.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it (9/3/2012 3:22:09 PM)
I had choice. I could not do the ants; I did the grasshopper. Crunchy, yes, but texture is not so much an issue with me. It wasn't bad at all, once you got past the intense crunchiness issue and the knowledge you were eating, well, a frigging grasshopper. If I had to eat one to live, oh, no problem.

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