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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 4:46:11 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 4:46:18 PM   
SiegFaust


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

Personally I love the French attitude to food...

The smaller and cuter than animal, the tastier

I love VEAL!!!!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.


What about Thumper...is he fair game?

< Message edited by SiegFaust -- 9/2/2012 4:49:03 PM >


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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 4:48:09 PM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.



Well, isn't it? Would you kill Bambi?

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 4:52:48 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.



Well, isn't it? Would you kill Bambi?


I love venison! But I don't have a big freezer to store the meat. Theoretically, I would kill bambi, or some other large game, to feed my family. I'm also a farmer's daughter. The animals on the family's holdings live well.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 4:54:12 PM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.



Well, isn't it? Would you kill Bambi?


I love venison! But I don't have a big freezer to store the meat. Theoretically, I would kill bambi, or some other large game, to feed my family. I'm also a farmer's daughter. The animals on the family's holdings live well.



But a cute baby deer???

I get close to tears every time I see one dead on the side of the road, the victim of a car. There are too many of those in Jersey, and they don't often get cleaned up.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 4:56:57 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Baby deer are not hunted!! Or does with fawns. There were TWO fawns with spots by the main road the other day, it's so sad. My county has a very high rate of deer/car collisions.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 5:00:11 PM   
Kana


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Once upon a time I was out to eat with this cute little thing. Everything went smooth until I ordered rabbit for dinner, at which point the conversation evolved.
Once the rabbit arrived, she pointed at it and said, "You can't eat that. Bunnies are cuuuuuuuuuuuuute."
So I pointed to the steak on her plate, said what about that.
And in a dazzling display of girl logic, w/o hesitation she replied, "That's a cow. Cows are for eating."

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 5:01:40 PM   
SiegFaust


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I am sorry for your deer.

< Message edited by SiegFaust -- 9/2/2012 5:03:15 PM >


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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 5:02:19 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Ah, I can't eat rabbt anymore... my grandmother cooked a rabbit not long after my Peggy piggen died, and seeing it on the plate, head and all...no. More for everyone else.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 5:07:11 PM   
tj444


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Bunnies are cute..

when i was a kid growing up on the farm, my mother suggested getting and raising rabbits and us kids were all for that.. until we found out she just wanted them so she could eat them.. it wasnt like she didnt have enough other critters to eat already..

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 5:11:58 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Yeah, my foster bunnies went back to the farmer, I couldnt eat something I named!

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 5:18:39 PM   
epiphiny43


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Empathy is selective? We know people who kill other humans for food, sport, sex and politics, if our media is to be given any credence. Many urban citizens would not do well if they had to slaughter all their dietary flesh. 4H fairs show close personal bonds don't protect red meat from the abattoir. And a few of us aspire to be living the Dali Lama's observation: "Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures." I found out I'm fine eating corn and rice and papaya if it means there is no blood on my hands or of the people I hire to stand in my place.
My brain says different things than my heart:
The realities of ecology are that Something has to be eating many of the deer or they eat the forest bare and not only the deer population but the whole ecosystem crashes. No species can long exist with unlimited growth. Humanity is no exception. We are now the incurable cancer eating the ecology of Planet Earth.
Answers exist, but damn few even will admit there is a situation till Their children are starving, then it's someone else fault. Humanity will be on it's own menu long before real population control is rationally instituted.
Even Yahoo is finally running stories about the structural limits of the ecosphere and human consumption patterns, water supply in point here: http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/vegetarian-2050-190426669.html
1/3 of human dietary protein is now fish. Fish farming the majority. Trends are fish farming Lowers total ecosystem capacity and total harvest though the corporations practicing it prosper. I'll try to dig up the study the total ocean protein production would be 5 times the present rapidly declining harvest if rational limits and processes were instituted to maximize food obtained with sustainability for every fishery. Yet another place where free market capitalism maximizes a few individual's opportunity and damages, maybe fatally, the overall interests of the community of humans and Earthly life. There is a time and place for everything? Nationally subsidized factory fishing fleets and particularly long line and bottom dredging time has passed.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 9/2/2012 5:34:17 PM >

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 6:58:56 PM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.



Well, isn't it? Would you kill Bambi?


I love venison! But I don't have a big freezer to store the meat. Theoretically, I would kill bambi, or some other large game, to feed my family. I'm also a farmer's daughter. The animals on the family's holdings live well.



But a cute baby deer???

I get close to tears every time I see one dead on the side of the road, the victim of a car. There are too many of those in Jersey, and they don't often get cleaned up.

Since Wolves were wiped out, there are no predators able to keep the deer population in check, by taking out the weak ones. This means that without hunting the deer would become so numerous that they would eat everything, and then be wiped out in the winter by starvation. And so would many other herbivores, dependent on the food the huge numbers of deer would eat.

Not pretty.

Moral : Be careful what you wish for. Some well meaning bureaucrat might make it a mission to see that you get it.

On another topic, Trophy Hunting, which takes the strongest animals out of the woods and puts them on tavern walls, IS a truly disgusting practice that should be banned worldwide. Not because it's wrong. It is wrong, the acme of selfishness, but we don't need to have that argument. It should be done to protect the genetics of the game animals.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 9:32:16 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond

Does it really matter what happens before then? Nicer living conditions? Being petted? Maybe if you want to eat meat, you have to raise your own?

For me - yes living conditions, quality of life and method of dispatch Do matter.

I didn't think that thread turned into dislike of meat eating

I thought it was dislike of someone telling how turkeys were kept so overcrowded they had to have the beaks clipped to prevent them hurting each other.

Big difference for me

Personally I eat meat though looking into going veggie

However I am very careful where I get it from and the ethics of the suppliers

yeah,.. it did turn sorta nasty.. cuz according to one poster, going veggie aint good enough.. ya gotta be vegan or you are worse & more cruel than the carnivores..



That was me. Nasty? Hardly. Compassionate. We are not meant to eat meat and we are surely not meant to steal the babies of mother's for our own greed. Tell me how that is nasty?

we are not meant to eat meat, or that silly title grill it you gotta kill it would make sense. True carnivores do not need to grill their meat, they eat it raw, bones and all.

http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm


< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 9/2/2012 9:36:27 PM >


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 9:34:48 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Years ago, we raised some pigs. I would scratch their bellies, sit and smoke a joint and sing to them, just loved them to pieces. Then they got huge and were taken to slaughter.

The first roast I cooked got bigger and bigger, the more I chewed-lol. I was remembering the belly scratchings and such. I did get over it, but that was when I realized what really is in the meat case at Kroger.

Animals being mistreated makes me sick, no doubt. I just wonder how humane treatment can be reconciled with "until we kill and eat you".




It can't. Being vegan can.

Have you seen "Earthlings" or watched Philip Woolen's speech on taking animals off the menu? I refuse to be shamed for caring about animals.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 9:37:50 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Ah, I can't eat rabbt anymore... my grandmother cooked a rabbit not long after my Peggy piggen died, and seeing it on the plate, head and all...no. More for everyone else.


love you Hibbie oxox

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 9:41:09 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SiegFaust

quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

Personally I love the French attitude to food...

The smaller and cuter than animal, the tastier

I love VEAL!!!!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.


What about Thumper...is he fair game?



http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html

Enjoy that veal. But make sure you can read this and accept your participation in the horror you encourage.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 9:49:15 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I've seen an awful lot of these sorts of threads over my years here. I am sure some of the same pro veg, anti animal farming/killing/etc will pop up with the same tired vegetarian PETA type propaganda.

I've grown up in farm country, spent most of my 50 years around it. Some of it is less than impressive. Most of it, not nearly as horrible as PETA would like to lead you to believe. I hate PETA. They lie, they twist things, they use photos and video that are not even taken in the US to stir people here up. Misleading bullshit. Not unlike the anti-abortion nuts that protest with the gory photo covered signs outside and around the Planned Parenthood facility in Iowa City.

The core of the arguments against some animal farming practices I support. The way organizations like PETA blow things up, twist them, etc......sickens me as much as the animal abuses that do happen.

I am a meat eater and will likely always be. I have three dogs that eat a lot of meat as well. That being said, we humans tend to eat a lot more meat that we should or need to. I've cut way back as I know, I need very little. Still, I do believe animal protein is an important part of a health diet. Regardless of whatever argument vegans come up with to the contrary. Especially during brain development years.

As long as human beings eat meat there will be a need for farmers to raise it the most efficient and cost effective ways possible. WE.......with our numbers, in a myriad of ways, suburban spread, the price of land, the price of fuel, the price of grain....have created the need for cost effective factory farming of animal protein.

PETA would be better served to try and deal with the bigger picture. Encourage people to reclaim their cities for living spaces rather than search out the dream of the new home in a burb......that should be a farm instead. Encourage their local governments to bann the ability of land to be sold for urban sprawl that raises farm land prices. Encourage government to fund programmes that lead to educating people on nutrition that requires less cheap meat. Encourage government funding towards research of alternate farming. Lessening the need of farmers to farm as 'cheaply' as possible.......aka factory farming. And on and on........but no, it's not as exciting as snapping photos of horrible farm practices somewhere in rural Romania, and passing them off in a video or brochure as yet another horrible grain belt factory farm.

Most of the animal rights extremists have never even BEEN on one of our farms. They have no idea what it's really like. It's far easier to sit in their urban environments and create judgement based upon bad propaganda that's been built up and twisted into something that barely even resembles reality.

I am not saying that everything the farmers around here do is correct, right, or moral. I've certainly had my fair share of heated 'discussions' with a few.

I would love to guarantee that every bite of bacon or hamburger was raised in a manner that parallels my morals of how a living feeling being should be treated. Unfortunately I simply cannot afford to. My finances are stretched to the max as it is. Not unlike many of the family farmers I know.

It's easy to sit on a moral pedestal and preach. Trust me, if I wasn't born, raised, and still living here........I'd be one. But I AM too close to it. It is more personal. I know these farmers. They are not the evil spawn of satan. They are working class people trying to raise their kids, pay their bills, caring for the land they love in the best way they know how. They know that some of the things they have to do are repulsive to many. Nearly every one of those things has a common sense reason. These farmers are not crazy sick, mentally ill whackos, cackling gleefully while sadistically torturing innocent animals. They are trying to make a living from feeding a ridiculously growing population of disconnected gluttons growing ever more obese off the fruits of their toil.


I despise PeTa, all true Animal Activists do, as do we despise the HSUS. I also don't hold vegetarians in much higher regards, they know the horrors of the milk and dairy industry and still eat it. Working class people? I am a bartender married to a carpenter. Ain't much more blue collar than that. I still know better than to eat sentient beings. And a lot of slaughterhouse workers are sick fucking sadists, I can sit up all might posting pics and articles to prove it. I grew up in Maine, in a hunting family, they still hunt, and I am not on any pedestal, if anything I am the one the believes I am NOT better than these animals, and they are not my lives to take. Going vegan won't end farming it will enhance it and prolong it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc



< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 9/2/2012 9:53:26 PM >


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 9:56:13 PM   
Aynne88


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This is the transcript to the speech:

On behalf of St James Ethics Centre, the Wheeler Centre,
The Melbourne Food and Wine Festival, The Age
The City of Melbourne and the ABC
All of whom have worked together to make this event possible
I would like to welcome
Philip Wollen

((Applause))

King Lear, late at night on the cliffs asks the blind Earl of Gloucester “How do you see the world?”

And the blind man Gloucester replies “I see it feelingly”.

Shouldn’t we all?

Animals must be off the menu because tonight they are screaming in terror in the slaughterhouse, in crates, and cages. Vile ignoble gulags of despair.
I heard the screams of my dying father as his body was ravaged by the cancer that killed him. And I realised I had heard these screams before.
In the slaughterhouse, eyes stabbed out and tendons slashed, on the cattle ships to the Middle East and the dying mother whale as a Japanese harpoon explodes in her brain as she calls out to her calf.
Their cries were the cries of my father.
I discovered when we suffer, we suffer as equals.
And in their capacity to suffer, a dog is a pig is a bear. . . . . . is a boy.
Meat is the new asbestos – more murderous than tobacco.

CO2, Methane, and Nitrous Oxide from the livestock industry are killing our oceans with acidic, hypoxic Dead Zones.
90% of small fish are ground into pellets to feed livestock.
Vegetarian cows are now the world’s largest ocean predator.
The oceans are dying in our time. By 2048 all our fisheries will be dead. The lungs and the arteries of the earth.
Billions of bouncy little chicks are ground up alive simply because they are male.
Only 100 billion people have ever lived. 7 billion alive today. And we torture and kill 2 billion animals every week.
10,000 entire species are wiped out every year because of the actions of one species.
We are now facing the 6th mass extinction in cosmological history.
If any other organism did this a biologist would call it a virus.
It is a crime against humanity of unimaginable proportions.
The world has changed.
10 years ago Twitter was a bird sound, www was a stuck keyboard, Cloud was in the sky, 4 g was a parking place, Google was a baby burp, Skype was a typo and Al Kider was my plumber.
Victor Hugo said “there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come”.

Animal Rights is now the greatest Social Justice issue since the abolition of slavery.
There are over 600 million vegetarians in the world.
That is bigger than the US, England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Canada, Australia combined! If we were one nation we would be bigger than the 27 countries in the European Union!!
Despite this massive footprint, we are still drowned out by the raucous huntin’, shootin’, killin’ cartels who believe that violence is the answer – when it shouldn’t even be a question.
Meat is a killing industry – animals, us and our economies.
Medicare has already bankrupted the US. They will need $8 trillion invested in Treasury bills just to pay the interest. It has precisely zero!!
They could shut every school, army, navy, air force, and Marines, the FBI and CIA – and they still won’t be able to pay for it.
Cornell and Harvard say’s that the optimum amount of meat for a healthy diet is precisely ZERO.
Water is the new oil. Nations will soon be going to war for it.
Underground aquifers that took millions of years to fill are running dry.
It takes 50,000 litres of water to produce one kilo of beef.
1 billion people today are hungry. 20 million people will die from malnutrition. Cutting meat by only 10% will feed 100 million people. Eliminating meat will end starvation forever.

If everyone ate a Western diet, we would need 2 Planet Earths to feed them. We only have one. And she is dying.
Greenhouse gas from livestock is 50% more than transport . . . . . planes, trains, trucks, cars, and ships.
Poor countries sell their grain to the West while their own children starve in their arms. And we feed it to livestock. So we can eat a steak? Am I the only one who sees this as a crime? Every morsel of meat we eat is slapping the tear-stained face of a starving child. When I look into her eyes, should I be silent?
The earth can produce enough for everyone’s need. But not enough for everyone’s greed.
We are facing the perfect storm.
If any nation had developed weapons that could wreak such havoc on the planet, we would launch a pre-emptive military strike and bomb it into the Bronze Age.
But it is not a rogue state. It is an industry.
The good news is we don’t have to bomb it. We can just stop buying it.
George Bush was wrong. The Axis of Evil doesn’t run through Iraq, or Iran or North Korea. It runs through our dining tables. Weapons of Mass Destruction are our knives and forks.

This is the Swiss Army Knife of the future – it solves our environmental, water, health problems and ends cruelty forever.
The Stone Age didn’t end because we ran out of stones. This cruel industry will end because we run out of excuses.
Meat is like 1 and 2 cent coins. It costs more to make than it is worth.
And farmers are the ones with the most to gain. Farming won’t end. It would boom. Only the product line would change. Farmers would make so much money they wouldn’t even bother counting it.
Governments will love us. New industries would emerge and flourish. Health insurance premiums would plummet. Hospital waiting lists would disappear.
Hell “We’d be so healthy; we’d have to shoot someone just to start a cemetery!”
So tonight I have 2 Challenges for the opposition:
1. Meat causes a wide range of cancers and heart disease. Will they name one disease caused by a vegetarian diet?
2. I am funding the Earthlings trilogy. If the opposition is so sure of their ground, I challenge them to send the Earthlings DVD to all their colleagues and customers. Go on I DARE YOU.
Animals are not just other species. They are other nations. And we murder them at our peril.

The peace map is drawn on a menu. Peace is not just the absence of war. It is the presence of Justice.
Justice must be blind to race, colour, religion or species. If she is not blind, she will be a weapon of terror. And there is unimaginable terror in those ghastly Guantanamos.
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, we wouldn’t need this debate.
I believe another world is possible.
On a quiet night, I can hear her breathing.
Let’s get the animals off the menu and out of these torture chambers.
Please vote tonight for those who have no voice.
Thank you.


When I first read this, I sobbed. Now I feel empowered. And I really have not much more to add, and this convo makes me sad, so I hope maybe I changed one person's mind.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/2/2012 10:00:18 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond
Does it really matter what happens before then? Nicer living conditions? Being petted? Maybe if you want to eat meat, you have to raise your own?

For me - yes living conditions, quality of life and method of dispatch Do matter.

I didn't think that thread turned into dislike of meat eating

I thought it was dislike of someone telling how turkeys were kept so overcrowded they had to have the beaks clipped to prevent them hurting each other.

Big difference for me

Personally I eat meat though looking into going veggie

However I am very careful where I get it from and the ethics of the suppliers

yeah,.. it did turn sorta nasty.. cuz according to one poster, going veggie aint good enough.. ya gotta be vegan or you are worse & more cruel than the carnivores..


That was me. Nasty? Hardly. Compassionate. We are not meant to eat meat and we are surely not meant to steal the babies of mother's for our own greed. Tell me how that is nasty?

we are not meant to eat meat, or that silly title grill it you gotta kill it would make sense. True carnivores do not need to grill their meat, they eat it raw, bones and all.

It wasnt just me, the OP said it got nasty, I simply agreed that it did get sorta nasty due to your post about being vegetarian.. As a kid growing up on a farm i had no choice in what was grown to earn some sort of living (& even then my mother had to work as a nurse to keep us alive financially) but my being a vegetarian as a kid wasnt good enough for you since you said vegetarians are worse than meat eaters.. as i replied in the other thread, when i was a vegetarian i didnt drink milk, eat dairy or eggs either.. I simply didnt call it vegan since i dont know the exact qualifications for that elite title..

Just because people tend to cook meat doesnt mean we arent supposed to eat meat, an animal will eat cooked meat too, it doesnt care that its cooked.. and people tend to cook their veggies too so by your logic people are not meant to eat veggies either.. I personally dont think many people could tolerate a raw veg diet for long..

And just cuz most people cook their meat doesnt mean people cant eat raw meat.. my mother would do that on occassion and some people do eat steak tartar and raw fish sushi.. its simply a choice of most people to eat cooked meat...

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(in reply to Aynne88)
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