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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:07:09 AM

DeviantlyD

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Well I did mention WESTERN society, but hey.

I refer back to Aynne88's link for the rest. http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:13:08 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

So?

The vast majority of veggie eaters in Western society also eat cooked veggies.

Eating raw meat is something that has only very recently gone out of fashion. It therefore has no bearing on humanity's omnivore status.

Our food preference has changed, both in quantity, sort, as well as preparation method, more in the last 50 years than it has in all of human history combined. The fact that raw meat happened to have gone mostly out of fashion is no indication whatsoever on whether or not humans do in fact eat raw meat.

I'd be interested in seeing where this information (bolded) came from. Cooking meat has been around for centuries.

Actually it is likely that our ancestors going back to before the split that seperated us from chimps were omnivores because chimps are omnivores as well.

Cooking was one of the big advances that let us gain control of the world. It let our ancestors get more nutrition from food while killing pathogens. It is thought that cooking has driven the evolution of smaller jaws and teeth in humans which frees up skull space for an expanding braincase.

Eating raw meat was never common. Steak tartar and sushi are about the only historic examples.

The debate is more honest if it is centered on how frequently animal protein was part of our hunter gatherer ancestors diet and what bearingthat has on our diet today.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:26:22 AM

tj444

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People will eat what they want to eat, I have my own diet that i follow (& no one else will change my views on that). I dont lecture to other people what they should eat.. its a personal choice.. their choice..

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:26:27 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

In response to your "So?" comment, it is that you made a comment that implied there were plenty of raw meat eaters around since you liked raw meat. My rebuttal is that most of Western society does not eat raw, despite what your preferences are. My prior comments were general ones and not applying to specific individuals. Does that get my point across now?

I had no idea most of Western society no longer ate meat. In Western Europe, where I grew up, steak tartar is still ingrained enough into popular preference that every supermarket and sandwich shop serves it as part of their "plain" menu. Most all restaurants that serve sandwiches have it. Hell, both my high school and elementary school served it for school lunch.

So where exactly does that make you draw the conclusion that most Western societies don't eat raw meat? Granted, Americans doesn't tend to, but since when does America constitute as most Western societies? The parts of Europe I've traveled very much do eat raw meat. Steak tartar being a popular and common choice there.

But even IF Western society by en large doesn't eat raw meat anymore, that is no indication that we as humans aren't omnivores.
After all, most all Westerners also can't drink wild water anymore, without first boiling it... is that an indication that Westerners aren't meant to drink water?

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/3/2012 12:30:45 AM >

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:27:35 AM

LadyPact

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Thank you, Ishtar!

Damn! I was starting to think I was the only one.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:48:55 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Another thread took an ugly turn, from being bitten by a turkey to the cruelty of eating animals.

With apologies for quoting Ted Nugent for the title of this one, what say any of you?

We have eaten meat since (or maybe before) we discovered fire. The end result of any animal raised for food is, they die. Does it really matter what happens before then? Nicer living conditions? Being petted? Maybe if you want to eat meat, you have to raise your own?

When I was growing up my family owned a farm. The reason they were kept in good living conditions was because they ate better and fattened up better. We also learned to name and treat as a pet, the animals that we would consume because it was a way of paying respect and honor to the animal. We would first thank God and then thank the animal and make sure that it was slaughtered in the fastest way possible so that it would not have to suffer.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 12:52:39 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

Eating raw meat was never common. Steak tartar and sushi are about the only historic examples.

And most African cultures, middle eastern cultures, Native Americans, The Inuit, The Swedes, the Russians, just to name a few. There's an Ethiopian restaurant here in the city that serves beef tartar and it's absolutely delicious. Unfortunately it's spicy though and so I can't eat it any time soon.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 9/3/2012 1:24:14 AM >

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 1:14:35 AM

DeviantlyD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

In response to your "So?" comment, it is that you made a comment that implied there were plenty of raw meat eaters around since you liked raw meat. My rebuttal is that most of Western society does not eat raw, despite what your preferences are. My prior comments were general ones and not applying to specific individuals. Does that get my point across now?

I had no idea most of Western society no longer ate meat. In Western Europe, where I grew up, steak tartar is still ingrained enough into popular preference that every supermarket and sandwich shop serves it as part of their "plain" menu. Most all restaurants that serve sandwiches have it. Hell, both my high school and elementary school served it for school lunch.

So where exactly does that make you draw the conclusion that most Western societies don't eat raw meat? Granted, Americans doesn't tend to, but since when does America constitute as most Western societies? The parts of Europe I've traveled very much do eat raw meat. Steak tartar being a popular and common choice there.

But even IF Western society by en large doesn't eat raw meat anymore, that is no indication that we as humans aren't omnivores.
After all, most all Westerners also can't drink wild water anymore, without first boiling it... is that an indication that Westerners aren't meant to drink water?

You're so right about everything!

There. Feel better?

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 1:17:10 AM

DeviantlyD

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If posters are going to make comments about time periods where none of us existed it would be nice if they backed it up with references.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 1:30:56 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

You're so right about everything!

There. Feel better?

What?

It's okay to present an argument stating that "if X then Z", but not okay for me to point out that Z doesn't logically follow from X?

If the objective of this thread is to only deal with conclusions that don't follow from the states premisses, somebody should have told me sooner, I would have stayed out of it.

Seriously, if you disagree, then make your case for it. I'm not trying to be unreasonable here. I just don't think that the school of thought you quoted makes logical sense at all.

The preparation preferences people have regarding meat are not an indicator on whether or not we actually evolved to eat meat.
Especially not considering that chimpanzees, our closest relative who also happens to be an omnivore, tends to get most of their animal protein intake from eggs, and half developed bird embryos. Which is an indication that that's how our own digestive systems have adapted to handle animal protein, long before we first ate live animal meat, cooked or not. Which would make us omnivores as well.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/3/2012 1:31:17 AM >

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 2:39:23 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

Eating raw meat was never common. Steak tartar and sushi are about the only historic examples.

And most African cultures, middle eastern cultures, Native Americans, The Inuit, The Swedes, the Russians, just to name a few. There's an Ethiopian restaurant here in the city that serves beef tartar and it's absolutely delicious. Unfortunately it's spicy though and so I can't eat it any time soon.

?
Steak tartar is from central asia.
What raw meat did an African or ME culture consume? Those cultures exist in regions where parasites dangerous to man are endemic in prey species as well as domestic species.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 2:52:42 AM

UllrsIshtar

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Which BTW, I know of fish, seafood, beef, horse, pork, insects, venison, moose, whale, seal, caribou and reptiles being eaten raw. I've tried most of these myself and I find they're all very tasty raw.

However, I've never heard of anybody, or any culture eating poultry raw habitually. I've tried it myself, but I don't care for the taste of it at all, despite the fact that I love cooked poultry. Has anybody every heard of a culture, or person that truly enjoys the taste of raw poultry? It's the only type of animal protein I've come across that nobody ever seems to eat raw.

PS: would anybody else find it incredibly ironic that Belgium's most popular -but by far not the only- raw meat dish is called "Filet Americain" when Americans generally don't want to touch raw meat, or horse meat, even cooked?

It's is a variation of steak tartar with a slightly different (heavier) spicing and has often got raw horse meat added to it.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 9/3/2012 3:07:14 AM >

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 7:53:49 AM

Baroana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Um. No, the point was that bambi is all cute and killing bambi is mean.

Well, isn't it? Would you kill Bambi?

I love venison! But I don't have a big freezer to store the meat. Theoretically, I would kill bambi, or some other large game, to feed my family. I'm also a farmer's daughter. The animals on the family's holdings live well.

But a cute baby deer???

I get close to tears every time I see one dead on the side of the road, the victim of a car. There are too many of those in Jersey, and they don't often get cleaned up.

Since Wolves were wiped out, there are no predators able to keep the deer population in check, by taking out the weak ones. This means that without hunting the deer would become so numerous that they would eat everything, and then be wiped out in the winter by starvation. And so would many other herbivores, dependent on the food the huge numbers of deer would eat.

Not pretty.

Moral : Be careful what you wish for. Some well meaning bureaucrat might make it a mission to see that you get it.

On another topic, Trophy Hunting, which takes the strongest animals out of the woods and puts them on tavern walls, IS a truly disgusting practice that should be banned worldwide. Not because it's wrong. It is wrong, the acme of selfishness, but we don't need to have that argument. It should be done to protect the genetics of the game animals.

Yes there are too many deer in these parts, but that does not excuse people driving like assholes or the failure to clean up the mess afterwards. With the obscene taxes we pay in Jeresey??? Seriously.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 8:19:41 AM

MariaB

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Recently we stayed with my best friend in southern France for a few weeks. She, her partner and daughter live in an old converted barn with a couple of acres of land that leads down to a river. She has really got into 'Perma growing' which has taken a couple of years to really take off and she only does this in her garden which is about 1/4 of an acre. I was astonished at the amount of edible vegetation they grow on such a small piece of land.
The acres are used for her horses, goats, ducks and chickens (though they prefer to hang around the house), cats, dogs and miniature pig.
She doesn't eat her animals but she does eat the duck and chicken eggs and she does milk the goats. The goats live in a pen under some shady trees but along with the dogs and the pig, they get 'free' walked twice a day, through the meadow and down to the river. I think they are very lucky animals and think its great the way she has learnt and understands all their individual personalities.

Now this is where the vegan bit couldn't fit into her lifestyle. If she allowed the eggs to hatch she would be inundated with chicks and ducklings who in turn would grow up and start producing more eggs. The added problem would be too many cockerels. If she sold the chicks and ducklings, she would be selling to the meat market, the very place she saved these chickens and ducks from.
The goats could just be pets but she purchased them as adults that hadn't taken when mated with the ram. They had both given birth to kids the previous year but because they hadn't produced the last attempt, they were put up in a meat auction. Those goats now have a wonderful life and they earn their keep by giving the family milk.
I would be interested to know what a vegan would do in such circumstances?

I also wanted to add that I abhor the mistreatment of animals and firmly believe that because animals don't have a voice, we sometimes have to be that voice. I do eat meat occasionally (though I was vegetarian for 17 years) and I do have a conscience about the way my meat is slaughtered. I believe anyone who eats beef or pork but won't eat a bunny rabbit or deer because its just too cute, is a hypocrite. One life isn't more valuable than another.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 8:28:41 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Hell yes...theres fructose in every damn thing. Not to mention the bad name that gluten is getting lately as well. It's amazing how many products contain gluten when you start reading labels.

Tell me about it, I'm celiac but I wasn't born celiac. A friend who is a doctor recently said, 'Its interesting that more and more people are suffering IBS but are not being tested for gluten intolerance and even when they are tested, the test is often done incorrectly and has a high chance of showing up false negatives. Gluten intolerance is becoming more and more common but then we are eating more and more gluten's.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 9:05:11 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I also wanted to add that I abhor the mistreatment of animals and firmly believe that because animals don't have a voice, we sometimes have to be that voice. I do eat meat occasionally (though I was vegetarian for 17 years) and I do have a conscience about the way my meat is slaughtered. I believe anyone who eats beef or pork but won't eat a bunny rabbit or deer because its just too cute, is a hypocrite. One life isn't more valuable than another.

I dont see it as one life being more important than another.. how many people in the US would eat dogs or cats? its just we categorize animals based on how we see them.. if people have certain feelings about certain critters they will not enjoy or want to eat them.. People arent always logical.. Is fish & seafood a different category, are they even considered "meat"? people dont seem too concerned about them as they are about land critters..

I would prefer not to eat meat but I believe there are nutrients in meat that the body requires... so i dont personally see it as a real choice (for me)..

Yes, people can grow a lot of food on a small patch of land.. i dont really know what perma gardening is.. i am familiar with square food/raised bed gardening which is very productive..

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 9:18:42 AM

areallivehuman

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I'm a vegan who wears leather. I believe animals are for our use and consumption, I just choose not to ingest them.

I believe our current food supply is tainted, and is directly responsible for the upswing of cancer,diabetes, etc. in Western society.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 9:40:46 AM

LaTigresse

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I am craving a nice bloody rare, grilled steak.

Alas there isn't any in the deep freeze and I don't want to waste the gas in driving to town.

Last night we had fish for dinner. I didn't feel guilty about the fish dying so I could eat. I don't place the life of a beef steer as any more valuable than the life of a fish. That would be utterly hypocritical. A living being is a living being. I've got two horses. I believe that the US recently changed the laws allowing the slaughter of horses for human consumption. Before I sent my horses off to the fate I rescued them from, I would have them slaughtered by a butcher I trusted to do it properly. I could even eat it.

Perhaps it's just me. I've hunted. I've killed animals with my hands. I've had blood on my hands because of a living being's death. Rabbit isn't something I choose to eat as it's always been more work than it's worth. But yeah, I've shot, skinned, gutted and stewed. Life and death. It's part of the cycle.

I understand that it's not for everyone. I get that. I understand that some people are disgusted and appalled by the human consumption of meat and the way animals are often treated in our food supply system. To them I say, spend your money and live your lives the way you see fit. Condescend to me, talk down to me, treat me like some sort of evil criminal and I will say to you, in some form or other...."Fuck off!"

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 9:48:37 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I dont see it as one life being more important than another.. how many people in the US would eat dogs or cats? its just we categorize animals based on how we see them.. if people have certain feelings about certain critters they will not enjoy or want to eat them.. People arent always logical.. Is fish & seafood a different category, are they even considered "meat"? people dont seem too concerned about them as they are about land critters..

That is different because its individual choice. I wouldn't eat cat or dog because I wouldn't eat carnivorous meat but I personally don't believe a cat or a dog has any more value than the next animal, including fish. What it does have and should have is a right to a decent life and if it must be killed/slaughtered/murdered or whatever we want to call it, its done quickly and humanely.
A few years ago there was a string of protests outside a local rabbit farm, not because they were badly kept but because protesters felt it was immoral to eat little furry bunny rabbits.
We have the same every time they do a big round up of wild horses for slaughter because people feel its immoral to eat our equine friends. Well I don't eat horse meat but I don't believe a wild horse has any more value than a cow or a pig.
What gets me is, nobody is standing outside the abattoir up the road whilst thousands of chickens or turkeys sit in crates watching their buddies being butchered and just waiting for their turn. Is that because they aren't cute enough?

I would happily stand in a protest outside foie gras farm or veal farm because of the hideous torture the animal has to endure before its untimely death.
I have protested against fox hunting and bull fighting and if I have friends who have made every effort to prevent that cruel donkey ritual in Spain in the ' Pero Parlo Festival'
and don't even get me started on the cruelty that goes on in oriental countries. I may not cry at a dead deer at the side of the road because it was wild, took its chances and hit bad luck, but I cry my eyes out when I see some of those documentaries where snakes are skinned alive and sharks have their fins chopped off before being thrown back in the water to drown.

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RE: Before you grill it, ya gotta kill it - 9/3/2012 10:24:48 AM

Aynne88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

People will eat what they want to eat, I have my own diet that i follow (& no one else will change my views on that). I dont lecture to other people what they should eat.. its a personal choice.. their choice..

No it isn't. It's not your choice when you are involving the brutal slaughter of another being, a sentient loving being, standing in line at a fucking slaughterhouse, in absolute fear. It's not YOU meat, YOUR cheese, YOUR eggs, it theirs. I hope someday this selfish attitude so prevalent sinks in. It is a fucking living breathing creature, not food. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, all of you would be vegan. Guarantee.

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