RE: An understanding of political lies. (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:08:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hon... some of us do realize the facts behind the figures. You want to look at the balance and not at who did the spending and saving.


Okay.

(Grab your calculator on January 20th, 2013 and tell me the numbers then....k?....Moreso, since everyone, correctly, wants to add in the first year of the "next" Prez's budget deficit...let's wait until January 1, 2014....yeah? Wanna bet we're stretching 8+?).

Count on it.


Its October, not January.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:10:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:11:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hon... some of us do realize the facts behind the figures. You want to look at the balance and not at who did the spending and saving.


Okay.

(Grab your calculator on January 20th, 2013 and tell me the numbers then....k?....Moreso, since everyone, correctly, wants to add in the first year of the "next" Prez's budget deficit...let's wait until January 1, 2014....yeah? Wanna bet we're stretching 8+?).

Count on it.


Its October, not January.


(Well, actually, it's September, however, the federal budget ends in October...my error...you're correct).




tazzygirl -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:11:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.


Dont look to me for an argument. I say flat tax everyone of em... on everything.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:16:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mirror88

quote:

none of which is or was necessary.


you were doing great right up until then.

No sane person thinks the war to pretend to find WMDs was "necessary" now that we know that Bush lied about the pretext he gave Congress. The people whose "identity" is tied in with the military or with the Republican party may hang on to how great it is that we ousted the dictator, but few really buy that was worth trillions and the 10,000 amputees. That is why the Republican convention did not bring up the WMD war or Bin Laudin.

After the fact observations are ok, as long as you cop to the facts at the time of the observed behavior/mistake.
There are still people who are convinced we went into Iraq to deal with the Al-Qaida.
There were none there until we got there, but bush told the troops that was an actual objective/issue, for years, so that after a few years, more than half the troops believed it, and did for years after Bush himself admitted there were none at the time of the invasion.


Well, I'm not at all sure where you got your incredibly misguided assumptions as to my personal opinions, as I agree with (the bulk of) your premise, but for one issue:

There were no Al Quaida when we entered Iraq...and there were none when we left (or in between...with, I'm certain, some nominal exception...unfortunately as to this discussion, I wasn't there so my presumptions are only and exactly....that).




LookieNoNookie -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:17:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.


Dont look to me for an argument. I say flat tax everyone of em... on everything.


How about a VAT? Much fairer to all.




tazzygirl -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 4:28:09 PM)

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?




erieangel -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 5:15:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?


Yep. The poor would pay more in VAT or in Flat.

Which is why this country has had a progressive tax system since forever.




slvemike4u -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 6:09:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?

Yes...which makes this a typical Republican idea .




slvemike4u -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 6:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?


Yep. The poor would pay more in VAT or in Flat.

Which is why this country has had a progressive tax system since forever.

Well at least up till the point that Mittens(should he win) makes it regressive [:)]




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 6:47:44 PM)

May I just interject one thing? there is NO republican Lilly Ledbetter.




subrob1967 -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 7:03:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

May I just interject one thing? there is NO republican Lilly Ledbetter.




Imagine that, there isn't one in the White House either...




Musicmystery -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 7:38:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?

They would on your flat tax too.




tazzygirl -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/4/2012 9:48:09 PM)

How would it on a percentage?




LookieNoNookie -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/5/2012 3:06:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?


Yep. And the wealthy would be guaranteed to pay a specific amount, as opposed to the less than zero everyone always complains about.




Musicmystery -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/5/2012 3:13:43 AM)

they are currently exempt up to a certain point, and taxed at a low rate over that up to a certain amount.

A flat tax is regressive.




Musicmystery -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/5/2012 3:43:04 AM)

quote:

How about a VAT?

I've advocated for a VAT for decades. Yes.




DesideriScuri -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/5/2012 8:08:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How would it on a percentage?


This is where I think a consumption tax (exempting foods currently tax exempt) should be the norm. Those that consume more, pay more. Regardless of income, the more or less you consume, the more or less you pay in taxes.

A flat tax, unless there is an exempt portion of income, will hit the lower wage earners harder. Yes, they would be paying the same % as a high earner, but, that would impact them more because they have less to take from in the first place. Granted, it could be very motivating to make more to have more left.

A VAT tax won't really help any but government. At each manufacturing step, taxes will be paid, but that gets rolled into the cost of the good. Let's just for shits and giggles look at a good that has 4 steps that get hit with a 10% VAT tax. Now, we'll also assume a 10% markup on the cost of goods at each level.

Step 0: $100 cost of goods
Step 1: $121 cost of goods ($100 cost +10% markup +10% VAT)
Step 2: $146.41 cost of goods ($121 cost +10% markup ($12.1) + 10% VAT ($13.31))
Step 3: $177.16 COG ($146.41 COG + 10% Markup + 10% VAT)
Step 4: $214.36 COG ($177.16 COG + 10% Markup + 10% VAT)
Consumer: $235.79 ($214.36 COG + 10% Markup)

So, for a good that originally cost $100, the final cost to a consumer (ignoring sales taxes) is $235.79, or 135.79% more than the cost of the good. That's also assuming that the value added to the original material is included as part of the 10% markup (not likely).

Without a VAT and continuing to assume 10% markup:

Step 0: $100 COG
Step 1: $110 COG ($100 COG + 10% markup)
Step 2: $121 COG ($110 COG + 10% markup)
Step 3: $133.10 COG ($121 COG + 10% markup)
Step 4: $146.41 COG ($133.10 COG + 10% markup)
Consumer: $161.05 ($146.41 COG + 10% markup)

That's a 61.05% increase in price for the consumer.

Perhaps we are in different income categories (I hope for your sake, we are; if not, I'm sorry for you to hear that), but I'd much rather pay 61% markup compared to a 135% markup.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12099638

UK raising their VAT tax from 17.5% to 20%. Using 20% as the VAT, and keeping the same assumptions otherwise makes the final cost to the consumer $333.96, or almost 234% increase over original cost of goods.

Consumers end up paying out the nose for these things. Those with lower incomes to begin with feel the pinch harder.




Owner59 -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/5/2012 8:12:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.


Dont look to me for an argument. I say flat tax everyone of em... on everything.


How about a VAT? Much fairer to all.


Another scam that`ll allow the mitt`s of the world pay even less and make working stiffs pay more.





tazzygirl -> RE: An understanding of political lies. (9/5/2012 8:56:12 AM)

There is a basic minimum required just to live that everyone would be taxed at. Beyond that are the exceptions.

The currect tax system is ridiculous.

To me, VAT penalizes those who barely make enought to survive.

A flat tax, of course with those at the lowest rungs being exempt.




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