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RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:08:59 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hon... some of us do realize the facts behind the figures. You want to look at the balance and not at who did the spending and saving.


Okay.

(Grab your calculator on January 20th, 2013 and tell me the numbers then....k?....Moreso, since everyone, correctly, wants to add in the first year of the "next" Prez's budget deficit...let's wait until January 1, 2014....yeah? Wanna bet we're stretching 8+?).

Count on it.


Its October, not January.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:10:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:11:27 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hon... some of us do realize the facts behind the figures. You want to look at the balance and not at who did the spending and saving.


Okay.

(Grab your calculator on January 20th, 2013 and tell me the numbers then....k?....Moreso, since everyone, correctly, wants to add in the first year of the "next" Prez's budget deficit...let's wait until January 1, 2014....yeah? Wanna bet we're stretching 8+?).

Count on it.


Its October, not January.


(Well, actually, it's September, however, the federal budget ends in October...my error...you're correct).

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:11:50 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.


Dont look to me for an argument. I say flat tax everyone of em... on everything.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:16:48 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mirror88

quote:

none of which is or was necessary.


you were doing great right up until then.

No sane person thinks the war to pretend to find WMDs was "necessary" now that we know that Bush lied about the pretext he gave Congress. The people whose "identity" is tied in with the military or with the Republican party may hang on to how great it is that we ousted the dictator, but few really buy that was worth trillions and the 10,000 amputees. That is why the Republican convention did not bring up the WMD war or Bin Laudin.

After the fact observations are ok, as long as you cop to the facts at the time of the observed behavior/mistake.
There are still people who are convinced we went into Iraq to deal with the Al-Qaida.
There were none there until we got there, but bush told the troops that was an actual objective/issue, for years, so that after a few years, more than half the troops believed it, and did for years after Bush himself admitted there were none at the time of the invasion.


Well, I'm not at all sure where you got your incredibly misguided assumptions as to my personal opinions, as I agree with (the bulk of) your premise, but for one issue:

There were no Al Quaida when we entered Iraq...and there were none when we left (or in between...with, I'm certain, some nominal exception...unfortunately as to this discussion, I wasn't there so my presumptions are only and exactly....that).

(in reply to mirror88)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:17:52 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.


Dont look to me for an argument. I say flat tax everyone of em... on everything.


How about a VAT? Much fairer to all.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 4:28:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 5:15:40 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?


Yep. The poor would pay more in VAT or in Flat.

Which is why this country has had a progressive tax system since forever.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 6:09:01 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?

Yes...which makes this a typical Republican idea .

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 6:10:39 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?


Yep. The poor would pay more in VAT or in Flat.

Which is why this country has had a progressive tax system since forever.

Well at least up till the point that Mittens(should he win) makes it regressive

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 6:47:44 PM   
FMRFGOPGAL


Posts: 763
Joined: 9/1/2012
Status: offline 		May I just interject one thing? there is NO republican Lilly Ledbetter.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 7:03:33 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

May I just interject one thing? there is NO republican Lilly Ledbetter.




Imagine that, there isn't one in the White House either...

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to FMRFGOPGAL)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 7:38:52 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?

They would on your flat tax too.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/4/2012 9:48:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		How would it on a percentage?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/5/2012 3:06:41 AM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Wouldnt the poor pay more as a percentage of income?


Yep. And the wealthy would be guaranteed to pay a specific amount, as opposed to the less than zero everyone always complains about.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/5/2012 3:07:46 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/5/2012 3:13:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		they are currently exempt up to a certain point, and taxed at a low rate over that up to a certain amount.

A flat tax is regressive.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/5/2012 3:43:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

How about a VAT?

I've advocated for a VAT for decades. Yes.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/5/2012 8:08:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How would it on a percentage?


This is where I think a consumption tax (exempting foods currently tax exempt) should be the norm. Those that consume more, pay more. Regardless of income, the more or less you consume, the more or less you pay in taxes.

A flat tax, unless there is an exempt portion of income, will hit the lower wage earners harder. Yes, they would be paying the same % as a high earner, but, that would impact them more because they have less to take from in the first place. Granted, it could be very motivating to make more to have more left.

A VAT tax won't really help any but government. At each manufacturing step, taxes will be paid, but that gets rolled into the cost of the good. Let's just for shits and giggles look at a good that has 4 steps that get hit with a 10% VAT tax. Now, we'll also assume a 10% markup on the cost of goods at each level.

Step 0: $100 cost of goods
Step 1: $121 cost of goods ($100 cost +10% markup +10% VAT)
Step 2: $146.41 cost of goods ($121 cost +10% markup ($12.1) + 10% VAT ($13.31))
Step 3: $177.16 COG ($146.41 COG + 10% Markup + 10% VAT)
Step 4: $214.36 COG ($177.16 COG + 10% Markup + 10% VAT)
Consumer: $235.79 ($214.36 COG + 10% Markup)

So, for a good that originally cost $100, the final cost to a consumer (ignoring sales taxes) is $235.79, or 135.79% more than the cost of the good. That's also assuming that the value added to the original material is included as part of the 10% markup (not likely).

Without a VAT and continuing to assume 10% markup:

Step 0: $100 COG
Step 1: $110 COG ($100 COG + 10% markup)
Step 2: $121 COG ($110 COG + 10% markup)
Step 3: $133.10 COG ($121 COG + 10% markup)
Step 4: $146.41 COG ($133.10 COG + 10% markup)
Consumer: $161.05 ($146.41 COG + 10% markup)

That's a 61.05% increase in price for the consumer.

Perhaps we are in different income categories (I hope for your sake, we are; if not, I'm sorry for you to hear that), but I'd much rather pay 61% markup compared to a 135% markup.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12099638

UK raising their VAT tax from 17.5% to 20%. Using 20% as the VAT, and keeping the same assumptions otherwise makes the final cost to the consumer $333.96, or almost 234% increase over original cost of goods.

Consumers end up paying out the nose for these things. Those with lower incomes to begin with feel the pinch harder.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/5/2012 8:12:31 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yes, we do owe an ungodly amount. The Tarp and such were not enough. They should have let those businesses sink... instead, they tossed quarters to try and shore them up. All they did was fill the bottom of the hole to keep it from sinking deeper.

Think I like any of this? Think I am standing here with pom pom's cheering on more debt?

Hell no.

But you cant lower taxes, raise spending, and expect the budget to ever balance. And thats the GOP platform.


You just posed Romney's thesis: "They should have let those businesses sink... "

And yes, I agree....taxes should go up, not down....on everyone.


Dont look to me for an argument. I say flat tax everyone of em... on everything.


How about a VAT? Much fairer to all.


Another scam that`ll allow the mitt`s of the world pay even less and make working stiffs pay more.



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: An understanding of political lies. - 9/5/2012 8:56:12 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		There is a basic minimum required just to live that everyone would be taxed at. Beyond that are the exceptions.

The currect tax system is ridiculous.

To me, VAT penalizes those who barely make enought to survive.

A flat tax, of course with those at the lowest rungs being exempt.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 80
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