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Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/11/2012 6:00:08 PM

Politesub53

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Lets hope this racist shit is pleased with himself. He was well aware what his actions may have caused, hopefully it wont get any worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19562692

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/11/2012 9:45:48 PM

TheHeretic

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9/11 attacks on US embassies/consulates in two of the Arab Spring countries. Dead and wounded American staff in Libya, the US Embassy flag torn down and replaced with an Islamic one in Cairo, and you figure some kook who burned a book is to blame, and what we should be talking about?

Really?

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 3:14:29 AM

Politesub53

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That certainly seems to be the case from reading the link I put up. I did wonder about the date though.

From todays news it seems the attack in Egypt was by an angry mob, and the one in Libya by armed militia, altogether more sinister.

Let me ask you though Rich....can you put your hand on heart and say Jones`s film played no part in either attack...... I cant.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 7:12:38 AM

subrob1967

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Bin Ladin's dead, GM's alive... Makes one hell of a good soundbite, right?

Welcome back, Carter.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 7:40:22 AM

Marc2b

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The content of the film is irrelevant. The issue here is freedom of speech. It does not matter if you or I or anyone else finds the content of the speech abhorrent. Civilized people do not kill people because somebody somewhere said something they didn't like. Fred Phelps pisses the fuck out of me but I don't try to burn down his house. Hell, people here on CM have said things that piss me off but you don't see me calling for their deaths. Trying to place the blame for these murders on anyone but the intolerant fanatics who committed them is just wrong.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 8:12:51 AM

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9537939/US-consulate-attack-in-Libya-unrepentant-film-maker-goes-into-hiding.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9538693/US-ambassador-killed-in-Libya-Afghanistan-bans-YouTube-over-anti-Islam-film.html

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 10:12:47 AM

DomYngBlk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Bin Ladin's dead, GM's alive... Makes one hell of a good soundbite, right?

Welcome back, Carter.

Not quite. Al Queda is decimated. Left to the scrap heap as other rivals pick over the bones of what once was. And you dont suppose that they got the message? Obama will kill you. Republicans will simply coddle you.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 10:15:58 AM

mnottertail

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Or trade arms for hostages, or arm and supply you in the first place, and then raise catcalls at the guy who wipes your ass off the face of the earth.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 11:24:06 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

The content of the film is irrelevant. The issue here is freedom of speech. It does not matter if you or I or anyone else finds the content of the speech abhorrent. Civilized people do not kill people because somebody somewhere said something they didn't like. Fred Phelps pisses the fuck out of me but I don't try to burn down his house. Hell, people here on CM have said things that piss me off but you don't see me calling for their deaths. Trying to place the blame for these murders on anyone but the intolerant fanatics who committed them is just wrong.

Absurd tosh.

The content of the film isnt irrelevant, it was the trigger for the events. Your patronising remarks about others "preconceived notions" apply to you just as easily. Recent history shows how Muslims react to certain events. Jones knew this but still felt it was okay to release a film inciting Muslims, he was clearly looking for, and got, a reaction.

No amount of bullshit about free speech absolves him from that. Just as his film doesnt absolve those that attacked your embassies.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 11:45:48 AM

Politesub53

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19572912

Nope no incitement to hatred here. The producer claims the film isnt about religion, despite describing Muslims as a cancer.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 11:48:31 AM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Bin Ladin's dead, GM's alive... Makes one hell of a good soundbite, right?

Welcome back, Carter.

Not quite. Al Queda is decimated. Left to the scrap heap as other rivals pick over the bones of what once was. And you dont suppose that they got the message? Obama will kill you. Republicans will simply coddle you.

Tell that to the thousands of protestors outside the embassy in Cairo shouting "Obama Obama there are still a billion Osama's!"

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 11:52:32 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9537939/US-consulate-attack-in-Libya-unrepentant-film-maker-goes-into-hiding.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9538693/US-ambassador-killed-in-Libya-Afghanistan-bans-YouTube-over-anti-Islam-film.html

Both of these news items are known to me. I'm don't understand what your point is.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 12:29:50 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Absurd tosh.

The content of the film isnt irrelevant, it was the trigger for the events. Your patronising remarks about others "preconceived notions" apply to you just as easily. Recent history shows how Muslims react to certain events. Jones knew this but still felt it was okay to release a film inciting Muslims, he was clearly looking for, and got, a reaction.

No amount of bullshit about free speech absolves him from that. Just as his film doesnt absolve those that attacked your embassies.

The content of the film is irrelevant... to anyone who gives a shit about freedom of speech.

I made no remarks about "preconcieved notions," patronising or otherwise. I did say that it does not matter if you or I or anyone else finds the content of the speech abhorrent (I believe that covers "apply to you just as easily"). I said that because it is true. The contents of someone else's speech does not give you leave to commit murder no matter how much it pisses you off. And believe me I know how much the things people say can piss you off... but that is an emotional reaction and the whole point of having a civilized society is that we don't allow our emotions to rule us.

So recent events show how some Muslims react whenever their precious prophet is dissed. So what? Are we supposed to censor ourselves because other people behave like barbarians and don't respect the rights of others? If we do that, then we have no rights.

If we accept the premise that this guy was looking for a reaction (I've not yet seen the film in question so I cannot yet make that judgement, but for the sake of argument...) then what have these intolerant religious fanatics demonstrated? Well, they have demonstrated that they can be provoked into a murderous rage by mere words. I will not give any credence to their intolerance by shifting any of the blame away from those who have commited the violence. If they are upset that someone has the actual audacity to disagree with them then they can do what civilized people do... they can go on the internet and and rant and rave about it.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 12:44:52 PM

FMRFGOPGAL

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I think the only censorship that was called for today was self-censorship. For the common good. Mitt Romney should have passed on that political "opportunity".
That isn't a freedom of speech issue as much as it is one of citizenship and self-governance.

< Message edited by FMRFGOPGAL -- 9/12/2012 12:46:59 PM >

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 1:05:46 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I think the only censorship that was called for today was self-censorship. For the common good. Mitt Romney should have passed on that political "opportunity".
That isn't a freedom of speech issue as much as it is one of citizenship and self-governance.

I think people are mixing up their threads. Mitt Romney's/the GOP quick draw reaction is being debated on another thread... where I agree that they opened their mouths before engaging their brains.

It is one thing to think things through before you react to them but the idea of self censorship, especially to avoid upsetting the violent fanatics among us is dangerous. It is an open invitation to chuck freedom and democracy aside and live under totalitarianism.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 2:04:21 PM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

I think the only censorship that was called for today was self-censorship. For the common good. Mitt Romney should have passed on that political "opportunity".
That isn't a freedom of speech issue as much as it is one of citizenship and self-governance.

And I think Obama should have stayed in Washington to deal with the attack instead of flying off to Vegas to cash in on a "political opportunity", or two since he's partying with his Peeps in Denver tomorrow.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 2:45:33 PM

FMRFGOPGAL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I think the only censorship that was called for today was self-censorship. For the common good. Mitt Romney should have passed on that political "opportunity".
That isn't a freedom of speech issue as much as it is one of citizenship and self-governance.

I think people are mixing up their threads. Mitt Romney's/the GOP quick draw reaction is being debated on another thread... where I agree that they opened their mouths before engaging their brains.

It is one thing to think things through before you react to them but the idea of self censorship, especially to avoid upsetting the violent fanatics among us is dangerous. It is an open invitation to chuck freedom and democracy aside and live under totalitarianism.

Ummmm I'll go with "No, I know what thread I was in when I posted this to demonstrate there are several contrasts regarding how free speech is executed. As in sometimes it's not what you say, but what you don't as an act of responsibility."
I am certainly not suggesting you chuck anything.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 2:45:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lets hope this racist shit is pleased with himself. He was well aware what his actions may have caused, hopefully it wont get any worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19562692

Islam is a race? Since when?

His "actions" did not cause this. Fucking savages that think violence is an acceptable answer to a percieved slight caused this. Your acquiescence to this barbarism keeps it going.

I agree with Colonel Kratman when he said, "Let's see...they killed four of our diplomatic personnel. A thousand to one payback would be 4k, but I don't think that's enough to really catch their attention. I'd suggest forty thousand dead in Benghazi would be fair and effective, but I wouldn't object to 400,000, either."

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 2:57:47 PM

FMRFGOPGAL

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

I think the only censorship that was called for today was self-censorship. For the common good. Mitt Romney should have passed on that political "opportunity".
That isn't a freedom of speech issue as much as it is one of citizenship and self-governance.

And I think Obama should have stayed in Washington to deal with the attack instead of flying off to Vegas to cash in on a "political opportunity", or two since he's partying with his Peeps in Denver tomorrow.

Ah... So the world stops for 2-4 dozen jihadists who have hit and run and are now nowhere to be found. Yeah Rob, we're supposed to look like a paralyzed nation of 300 MILLION PEOPLE.
The Marines and (probably a nice Drone Unit) are now on the ground. It will get cleaned up thanks to a President who knows how to utilize the assets at his disposal.
I know that's not what you want to hear. But it is what it is.

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RE: Well done Pastor Jones. - 9/12/2012 3:08:31 PM

epiphiny43

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quote:

I agree with Colonel Kratman when he said, "Let's see...they killed four of our diplomatic personnel. A thousand to one payback would be 4k, but I don't think that's enough to really catch their attention. I'd suggest forty thousand dead in Benghazi would be fair and effective, but I wouldn't object to 400,000, either."

Afghanistan has been a hell for 3000 years living this sort of 'reasoning' and the Balkans as long. What is the difference between a fanatic killing someone half a world away for a perceived insult and you killing a city of innocents for something They didn't do? The turbans, their color, language, who they pray to? Or are you brothers under the skin to the people you condemn?
If there is ANY lesson from this century it's that killing Muslims to teach them to behave how we want doesn't work, and gets more people who weren't in the fight killed. Didn't work for the Russians, Israelis or us so far. Nor the Islamic factions that have been killing each other since the Prophet's Grandson became a casualty to the first wars. Mankind has baggage! Deal with it, don' t be it.

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