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RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 3:33:22 PM

graceadieu

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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
It seems they want to hold all Americans accountable for the comments of a few. Yet it seems we're not supposed to do the same? Frankly I doubt all Arabs hate America, though I am concerned that it is possible that most, if not all Muslims have a discontented feeling towards the west, as they like to call us.

I think that holding all Arab people accountable for the actions of a few will only cause us problems. I mean, be angry at all of them if you want, whatever - but in our foreign policy, we have to distinguish between our friends and our enemies in the Middle East. And people that could be swayed to become friends or enemies. During the attack on the consulate in Libya, there were friendly Libyan militia groups that tried to defend the consulate against the terrorists. We have to figure out how to win over new allies in the Muslim world and improve our image, while also working against our enemies.

And for what it's worth, I think that being "the better man" and not just going "well our enemies are doing _____, why shouldn't we?" is part of the way to do it. I read an article a couple years ago, I might have to try to dig it up, written by a former member of a Muslim terrorist group. IIRC, he said that what changed his heart and made him quit was that he was to prison without a trial in Egypt for years, and Western civil liberties groups kept trying to help him while his terrorist buddies did nothing. He basically realized that the people in the West he hated actually cared a lot more about justice, fairness, human rights etc than his side ever did, and gave up being a terrorist after he was released. Obviously that's just one guy, but I feel like always holding the moral upper ground and being the proverbial "light on the hill" really could help us.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 41

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 3:58:59 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

I think that holding all Arab people accountable for the actions of a few will only cause us problems. I mean, be angry at all of them if you want, whatever - but in our foreign policy, we have to distinguish between our friends and our enemies in the Middle East

I used to think this way as well…but…There comes a time when reality overcomes wishing and hope. Where are the demonstrations of support in the Muslim world?

I have NEVER seen a pro western demonstration in the Muslim world…only hate and resentment. They are perfectly willing to take our money and the lives of our children IF it will forward their agenda but they never respect us.

It is time for Muslims to rise up against extremism in their religion or be branded for the actions of those supposedly acting in their name and the name of their God.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to graceadieu)

Post #: 42

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:16:20 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I think that holding all Arab people accountable for the actions of a few will only cause us problems. I mean, be angry at all of them if you want, whatever - but in our foreign policy, we have to distinguish between our friends and our enemies in the Middle East

I used to think this way as well…but…There comes a time when reality overcomes wishing and hope. Where are the demonstrations of support in the Muslim world?

I have NEVER seen a pro western demonstration in the Muslim world…only hate and resentment. They are perfectly willing to take our money and the lives of our children IF it will forward their agenda but they never respect us.

It is time for Muslims to rise up against extremism in their religion or be branded for the actions of those supposedly acting in their name and the name of their God.

Butch

There were many, in Iran just after 9/11 and just before we (bush) caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

One of the main goals of bin-laden was to radicalize moderates and promote a never ending cycle of death and retribution and war between the ME and the west.

Let`s not bean count and play tit for tat or pretend to hold the moral high ground.

Let`s not......that`s exactly what al-queda wants.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 43

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:27:46 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The majority of Islam run countries just don't like freedom. They want Sharia, and the restrictive policies Sharia imposes... And they want it for EVERYONE, not just themselves.

Ah, no.

Really? Can you prove it?

Burden of proof is on the one making the silly exaggerated claims. That's you, son.

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 44

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:31:41 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Begs the question. How do you "resolve" a conflict with a rabid animal, to use R's example? Helps to understand what you're dealing with, even if your goal is to destroy it.

Once you understand what you're dealing with, people rather than rabid animals, more options present themselves. Better options.

Any moron can destroy.

They cannot have what they want and it is as simple as that. I fail to see how appeasement is going to work. I am not sympathetic. Enough games. They murder women, enough said. If what happened in Iraq wasn't convincing enough, it is for us to give them more not less. An apology from us is inappropriate though in-action may or may not be. It will be this President or the next. It is good to be a little unpredictable. As the terrorists cause us to wonder about what is going to happen tomorrow, let them wonder. Today we do nothing, tomorrow we come to liberate their women.

The problem with peace is that it takes two. If you want peace, but your adversary does not, there is little you can do. Peace is going to be a fantasy. Peace is a thing that is agreed upon. It cannot be a thing you simply want and lust after. China in its ancient past went through a period of war after war until someone perfected the art of war and brought an end to the conflict. Bush brought war, but did he perfect the art of war?

Is this unChristian? The sad truth is God put us here to live in the real world. We do what can be achieved, but if it becomes a matter of survival let there be no ambiguity; they are pavement. We Americans love peace, but do not challenge us for we shall bring peace if you make war.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 45

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:32:24 PM

Musicmystery

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If you read that and got appeasement, you need to re-read it first.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 46

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:34:13 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

How do we know it's a crap film?

I still cannot find one person in the entire world who has actually see in it!

It may be but clearly... this "film" is being used as an excuse to cover organized attacks on America.

These people are AT WAR with us, the sooner we stop paying lip service to that point and then deny that it can be so, the sooner we can inact a proactive stance and ELIMINATE the problem. The problem isn't a film or free speech, the problem is those that reject free speech and use whatever issue available to them to instill hate and discontent.

Really?

These people?

They just happened to start this war after the bigoted film got around?

This kind of ignorance and childishness is what got us duped into Iraq with 4500 GIs dead for nothing.

So Bull,FDF and the other "brave guys"......

How would a Romney or McCain admin. handled things differently?

Would they have allowed terrorist-American-killer gadaffi to commit genocide and wipe out whole cities under a McRomney admin.?

Would they have helped Mubarak murder his own people....... just to pretend we were safer with him as president?

Exactly.......what would cons do different in the ME......

Please.............enlighten us.....................Stop keeping it a secret.

You cons have been saying this crap since you started politicizing the deaths of our men in Libya.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/15/2012 4:38:08 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 47

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:42:44 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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Owner I think you have it backward. I guess you are saying that the actions of extremists represent a minority of Islam not the majority.

After 911 I was watching the same news as you and I will call you mistaken if you say there were more pro American Muslim demonstrations then assholes burning our flag… laughing and jumping with joy as the buildings fell. Reality is reality no matter how much we want it otherwise

I am saying the majority are anti-American . The vast majority of demonstrations throughout the world are Anti-American…We see it every night on our news stations…and not just our network news but the BBC as well.

I always call things as I see them… I have been wrong and will be in the future and I hope the Muslim world will change my mind and prove me wrong…but I doubt it.

Each and every time there is an atrocity committed by Muslims against innocents we made excuses for them…saying they did not represent the majority of Muslims… But each time the so called majority failed to shout down and condemn and act against this terrorism…Now they will have to convince me and I’ll bet the majority of Americans they have the desire to end this terrorism against the west.

By the way…not only the west but every nation that does not have a Muslim majority is suffering from this religious aggression and intolerance.

Lets not forget the minorities within the Muslim world... they are oppressed and discriminated against every day of their lives.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/15/2012 4:49:04 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 48

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:47:15 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Oh for fuck's sake FDD,if you feel the need to debate the merits of this film any further start a fucking thread,I for one could give a shit about the "quality" of this film or the standards you apply to film appreciation.
I have given my opinion,that's all it is,my opinion...and none of your usual childish bullshit will alter my opinion ,nor how I choose to express that opinion
So let me be clear,in my opinion this(film) is nothing more than a waste of celluloid(though I highly doubt it was even filmed in actual film, probably recorded on some digital device.Calling it a film is probably a misnomer)shit that is best consigned to the dustbin.
Clear enough ?

What is very clear, very very clear is your reaction.

As for starting another thread... I was not the one who brought the quality of the film/movie/video/digital short/zoetrope/mutoscope/praxinoscope or Magic Lantern Show... whatever you want to call. The OP brought in the artistic value of the "film"

Oh and it is also crystal clear is that at least for now, in the United States of America, we can be quite thankful that slavemike is not the arbiter of what is and what is not a waste of celluloid and what artistic visions are allowed to be view by the public or lost forever to government dustbins.

You got all that from my own personal pov that this is a piece of shit film.....lol
I would tell you to kiss my ass,but that is a violation of policy here...so I won't tell you that
I will say this though,in the US we do not have such an arbiter of taste,film or otherwise,we all get to draw our own conclusions....which is what I have done here
Any objection you have to that you can shove where the sun don't shine

Now you have yourself a nice day....I know I am

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 49

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:48:23 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Butch,

I`m not going to bean -count who`s more hateful or more ignorant and/or get into a race to the bottom.

Collective blame.,collective guilt and collective punishment goes both and is just as destructive and just as stupid ,both ways.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/15/2012 4:49:00 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 50

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:51:30 PM

subrob1967

Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I think that holding all Arab people accountable for the actions of a few will only cause us problems. I mean, be angry at all of them if you want, whatever - but in our foreign policy, we have to distinguish between our friends and our enemies in the Middle East

I used to think this way as well…but…There comes a time when reality overcomes wishing and hope. Where are the demonstrations of support in the Muslim world?

I have NEVER seen a pro western demonstration in the Muslim world…only hate and resentment. They are perfectly willing to take our money and the lives of our children IF it will forward their agenda but they never respect us.

It is time for Muslims to rise up against extremism in their religion or be branded for the actions of those supposedly acting in their name and the name of their God.

Butch

Here ya go

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Burden of proof is on the one making the silly exaggerated claims. That's you, son.

1

2

3

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 51

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:53:26 PM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Why didn't they target the filmaker? Does anyone remember the name: Salmon Rushdi (I'm sure I spelled it wrong. Sound it out)? Why didn't they target Youtube headquarters? It's simple really. The film was an excuse for them to perpetrate an act of war.

Possibly because it's easier to attack someone in your country vs someone halfway across the world. The latter requires a lot more time and planning. Though you're probably right about it being an excuse - they were probably just waiting for any excuse to lash out where they would maintain some public sympathy.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 52

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 4:53:34 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Sorry owner we will disagree... there is right and wrong in this world and I believe on the whole we are in the right and the majority of the Muslim world in the wrong.

It does not make any difference if I am right or not…just if I represent the views of the majority of Americans… I think I do.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 53

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:04:24 PM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
They cannot have what they want and it is as simple as that. I fail to see how appeasement is going to work. I am not sympathetic. Enough games. They murder women, enough said. If what happened in Iraq wasn't convincing enough, it is for us to give them more not less. An apology from us is inappropriate though in-action may or may not be. It will be this President or the next. It is good to be a little unpredictable. As the terrorists cause us to wonder about what is going to happen tomorrow, let them wonder. Today we do nothing, tomorrow we come to liberate their women.

What happened in Iraq radicalized moderates and swelled terrorist ranks. I don't think repeating that would be a good idea. As far as helping Muslim women in places where they're oppressed - we've seen in Afganistan that we unfortunately can't do that by military force unless we occupy the whole country indefinitely. It's got to be a cultural change from within. I think there are probably ways for us to foster that, through propaganda, building schools, supporting women's rights groups etc, but I don't think invading every Islamist nation is going to be a good strategy..

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 54

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:09:45 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

I understand more than you know.....I waited more than ten years for my friend`s killer,bin-laden, to get his justice.

And saw the invasion of an innocent country falsely justified by his death and the 9/11 attacks.Which was a whole other tragedy.

Not sure how we`re going to avoid casualties or attacks completely.Who knows how many gadaffi loyalists are still left in Libya?

What would you do differently?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 55

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:12:48 PM

graceadieu

Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Sorry owner we will disagree... there is right and wrong in this world and I believe on the whole we are in the right and the majority of the Muslim world in the wrong.

It does not make any difference if I am right or not…just if I represent the views of the majority of Americans… I think I do.

Butch

I don't think you do. Most Americans of course believe that fundamentalist Muslims are in the wrong, but not every Muslim. Plenty of Americans were very excited and supportive of the Arab Spring and the Green Revolution.

Do you actually know any Muslims? I'm guessing you don't or you'd know that most Muslims are just regular people like any other. Some are good, some are bad, some are religious, some are pretty secular, some are conservative and others liberal. Now, granted, most of the Muslims I've known are people that either grew up in the US or came here to get away from theocracy, so they're probably not all the way representative of the Arab world, but I'm sure that there are plenty of moderate decent people over there too. It's just hard to hear about them because the minority that do awful things are the ones that end up in the news.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 56

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:17:17 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Owner I think you have it backward. I guess you are saying that the actions of extremists represent a minority of Islam not the majority.

Lots of you keep spouting this line, so the following may be of interest.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/156539/Opinion-Briefing-Libyans-Eye-New-Relations-West.aspx

Here in the UK we have some 2,500,000 Muslims. One extreme Muslin group called for protests about the film and got a crowd of 200, I make that less than 1 in 10,000 or 0.01%.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 57

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:19:43 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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FR

Christ almighty. Now, British embassies are getting attacked by the same sorts of fanatics.

May I gently observe that nobody, but nobody, in the Western world outside of the USA gives a flying shit about the right of 'freedom of speech' of some small group of deranged American fruitcakes who want to piss off fanatical Muslims in Africa or the Middle East to the point where some of them start killing ambassadors? It's a great deal more important to us that our people *don't get killed*.

We are not living in the days of Voltaire anymore. In his day, you might well have said, 'I'll defend to the death your right to say what you want to say' - but that was then, when what 'you' said wasn't going to be spread across the world within minutes by means of the Internet.

Voltaire's statement is now out of date. His world has long gone and so have the ethical assumptions that went with it. In these days of the Internet we *all* have to realise and accept our new role as diplomats and ambassadors for our countries. Once, only a tiny few could expect that their words would be spread across the world. Now, the words of any stupid cretin could be read by the entire world. Finally, we all have to *grow the fuck up* and *take the responsibility that comes with our freedom*.

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(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 58

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:25:03 PM

cloudboy

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Joined: 12/14/2005
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Good article. Its disturbing to see so much anti-American sentiment; George W. Bush & Co. took the USA from a point of world sympathy (9/11) to world antipathy (the invasion of IRAQ.) In many quarters of the world, we are the new Russians (aka, the bad guys.)

We'll never quite know what the world would be like right now had GWB simply waited for Hans Blix to do his job, then instead of invading IRAQ, getting some kind of concessions from it instead.

We'll also never know what shape we'd be in now if Gore had won the election and all the ensuing mistakes of GWB were not committed.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 59

RE: Some insight into the Arab riots. - 9/15/2012 5:28:28 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

We Americans love peace

What?

There isn't enough vomit in the world to match the requirements of that statement.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 60

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