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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 1:08:28 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Let me help you with your confusion now!



I have no confusion. I stand by what I said. ;)


quote:

It is your opinion that Absent contradictory evidence, the above facts clearly exonerate Zimmerman. It is not a fact. Indeed, I'd say that arguing that they "clearly" exonerate Zimmerman is pretty fucking laughable, but...


As posted above, Massad Ayoob states that when pinned to the ground, disparity of force comes into play giving justification for the use of deadly force in self defense. This is an objective standard that he lays out. And since two of those facts that I listed are:

FACT: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating Zimmerman
FACT: Zimmerman made attempts to escape, but was prevented from doing so by Martin

By that objective standard, Zimmerman was justified.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 1:15:07 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

"When asked why Martin wasn't going to run DeeDee said it was because Martin was tired and out of breath. Clearly does not indicate a confrontational attitude. In listening to the interview with the state prosecutor, at NO POINT does DeeDee say anything about Martin "refusing" to go into Green's house. If you are going to claim that as "fact" please cite your source."


So are you disputing that Trayvon didn't go into Green's house? Deedee did say that Trayvon wasn't going to run anymore because he was right by his dad's house. Would an "excellent athlete" (according to his dad) be tired and out of breath after running for 15 seconds then having several minutes to catch his breath hiding in the bushes?

quote:

"Nowhere in anyone's statement does anyone indicate that he "returned" to the "T" from anywhere."


We know when George reached the T, Trayvon was no longer at the T. George had no visual on Trayvon (He tells the NEN dispatcher that he's afraid to give him his address because he doesn't know where the kid is). The encounter then takes place at the T. Simple logic means that Trayvon HAD to have come back to the T for the encounter to occur.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 1:15:44 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		A question of fact is a factual dispute between litigants that must be resolved by the jury at trial. It is an issue that is material to the outcome of the case and requires an interpretation of conflicting views on the factual circumstances surrounding the case.

And where were these facts stipulated as resolved by jury?

And where are they not disputed?  You mean that they have not been disputed as entered into evidence, well that dont mean shit.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 2:00:32 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Say, where is old Georgie hiding these days? I dont see him telling us everything he knows on the interview circuit anymore.


He has already moved in with Casey Anthony. Well hidden, he is.

Naw.. I figure he is bound and gagged and well locked up in O'Mara's closet..


There you go again . . . getting kinky on us

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 2:10:03 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

FACT: Zimmerman made attempts to escape, but was prevented from doing so by Martin (W6's testimony)
Zimmerman would NOT have been in a situation to need to escape had he not been wrongfully pursuing Martin in the first place. He was in a situation of his own wrongfull creation.

Ummmm. . . just my guess but I suspect the fact that George might have got his own ass in trouble is probably irrelevent to the Florida SYG Law, which speaks to the shooter's frame of mind only. I think!

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 3:40:32 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So, since Trayvon Martin has a gun pulled on him, he's NOT fearing for his life, and is capable of fleeing ( so he can be shot in the back, I suppose? )

After all, the only person saying that he didn't have the gun drawn is the person with ZERO CREDIBILITY.


The stand your ground law does not apply to Martin. Around in circles we go.


Why are you talking about SYG when we're discussing ordinary self-defense?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 3:41:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I still don't see how there's any doubt that Zimmerman tried to hold Martin at gunpoint.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/26/2012 3:43:37 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 3:49:11 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So, since Trayvon Martin has a gun pulled on him, he's NOT fearing for his life, and is capable of fleeing ( so he can be shot in the back, I suppose? )

After all, the only person saying that he didn't have the gun drawn is the person with ZERO CREDIBILITY.


The stand your ground law does not apply to Martin. Around in circles we go.


Why are you talking about SYG when we're discussing ordinary self-defense?


Clarify for me then. Whose self defense are you discussing? Thanks.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 4:49:47 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Trayvon Martin's self defense. He was the innocent kid who was just minding his own business when George Zimmerman approached him and brandished his firearm.

There's no evidence to contradict that version of events, and given Zimmerman's "Loose Cannon" history, it's perfectly in character.

So, there's NO REASONABLE DOUBT. Now, if Zimmerman had *any* credibility there COULD be some doubt, but given Zimmerman's history of lying to the court, there's no way anyone would believe him at this point.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:16:40 PM   
Nosathro


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Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Witness 6 has changed his story, he did at first say that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Now he states he does not know who was on top and who was on the bottom. Zimmerman in the video clearly states he comes into visual contact with Martin at the "T" and show that Martin was about 10 feet away from him. Zimmerman has plenty of time to escape but doesn't.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:22:45 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Trayvon Martin's self defense. He was the innocent kid who was just minding his own business when George Zimmerman approached him and brandished his firearm.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't see how Martin's self defense can be a trial issue although I might agree it is a moral issue if we really knew the unvarnished truth about the sequence of events.

quote:

There's no evidence to contradict that version of events, and given Zimmerman's "Loose Cannon" history, it's perfectly in character.

I doubt his character or prior acts will be an issue in a jury trial unless he testifies. Then it might be used to impeach him. Not really sure about all that tho.

quote:

So, there's NO REASONABLE DOUBT. Now, if Zimmerman had *any* credibility there COULD be some doubt, but given Zimmerman's history of lying to the court, there's no way anyone would believe him at this point.


You sure as heck may be right about that. However, let me remind you that Casey was also portrayed as a pathological liar even to a higher degree than George and that didn't seem to influence the jury on the murder charge.

You can never predict what will be relevent. Just sayin, yanno.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:31:12 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I still don't see how there's any doubt that Zimmerman tried to hold Martin at gunpoint.

The only thing to question your theory is the complete lack of evidence tosupport it.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:52:59 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Witness 6 has changed his story, he did at first say that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Now he states he does not know who was on top and who was on the bottom. Zimmerman in the video clearly states he comes into visual contact with Martin at the "T" and show that Martin was about 10 feet away from him. Zimmerman has plenty of time to escape but doesn't.

Why would he wish to run? He wasn't in fear for his safety until after he had been punched. Right?

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 7:21:30 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I still don't see how there's any doubt that Zimmerman tried to hold Martin at gunpoint.

The only thing to question your theory is the complete lack of evidence tosupport it.


The only evidence to the contrary are the claims of a known liar.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 7:54:01 PM   
SteelStallion


Posts: 4
Joined: 6/25/2008
Status: offline 		Trayvon Martin was a fully grown and hardened criminal caught again in the act of burglary with break-in tools at night and in the rain while hiding out at his father's condo complex where he sought refuge awaiting Court Trials after being kicked out of hos Mothers' Community for multiple felonies of drug dealing, burglary, theft, and beating up a School Bus Driver. He was a VIOLENT CRIMINAL who pounced on the innocent Night Watchman, George Zimmerman, and was in the process of killing him by smashing his head into the concrete pavement when George pulled his gun to scare off Trayvon, but ended up pulling the trigger. Trayvon Martin GOT HIMSELF KILLED trying to kill an innocent man! Trayvon Martin was not an innocent child!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 7:57:22 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I still don't see how there's any doubt that Zimmerman tried to hold Martin at gunpoint.

The only thing to question your theory is the complete lack of evidence tosupport it.


The only evidence to the contrary are the claims of a known liar.

And still there is no evidence to support it other than white guilt. Lack of evidence to disprove does not constitute evidence to prove. Might as well say that since there is no evidence proving that Martians didn't do it they must have.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/26/2012 8:00:04 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:10:08 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Witness 6 has changed his story, he did at first say that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Now he states he does not know who was on top and who was on the bottom.


Wrong. Witness 6 has never changed from being sure that Trayvon was the one on top.

quote:

Zimmerman in the video clearly states he comes into visual contact with Martin at the "T" and show that Martin was about 10 feet away from him. Zimmerman has plenty of time to escape but doesn't.


Irrelevant. Martin hadn't attacked Zimmerman yet; there is no legal obligation to escape at that point. (Nor was there at the point George used the weapon as a last resort.)

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:23:13 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelStallion

Trayvon Martin was a fully grown and hardened criminal caught again in the act of burglary with break-in tools at night and in the rain while hiding out at his father's condo complex where he sought refuge awaiting Court Trials after being kicked out of hos Mothers' Community for multiple felonies of drug dealing, burglary, theft, and beating up a School Bus Driver. He was a VIOLENT CRIMINAL who pounced on the innocent Night Watchman, George Zimmerman, and was in the process of killing him by smashing his head into the concrete pavement when George pulled his gun to scare off Trayvon, but ended up pulling the trigger. Trayvon Martin GOT HIMSELF KILLED trying to kill an innocent man! Trayvon Martin was not an innocent child!


The fact that their is a trial at all is due to the national outrage on the left. Essentially this is a political trial. There is not enough evidence to support an indictment let alone a conviction. And the Stanford police were right.

Fact: Travon Martin made a huge number of seriously poor life choices. I grieve that he did. I wish that he didn't.

I will gladly buy Zimmerman a drink if ever I meet him - because it could have been me, or you, or a little old grandmother.

And I will damn sure vote to support SYG.



< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 9/26/2012 9:27:09 PM >

(in reply to SteelStallion)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/27/2012 3:10:23 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I still don't see how there's any doubt that Zimmerman tried to hold Martin at gunpoint.

The only thing to question your theory is the complete lack of evidence tosupport it.


The only evidence to the contrary are the claims of a known liar.

And still there is no evidence to support it other than white guilt. Lack of evidence to disprove does not constitute evidence to prove. Might as well say that since there is no evidence proving that Martians didn't do it they must have.


Well, George Zimmerman's bullet in the dead kid's heart is evidence, right? George Zimmerman standing over the dying kid, holding the murder weapon is evidence right?

So, aside from Zimmerman's dismissable claims, exactly what evidence shows that Zimmerman didn't brandish his firearm in his frustration to prevent Martin from getting away. You need to consider Zimmerman's totality of actions that evening. How at EVERY TURN, Zimmerman chose to cause and escalate the confrontation.

Again, if Murder 2 doesn't appeal, there's always negligent manslaughter. Of course, from Zimmerman's point of view, there's no difference, since he murdered a minor, he's facing a MINIMUM of 25 years either way.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/27/2012 3:59:33 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		That, of course, is evidence George shot Martin. NOT evidence that George brandished or held him at gun point.

quote:

How at EVERY TURN, Zimmerman chose to cause and escalate the confrontation.


Nope, not seeing any evidence of Zimmerman causing or escalating anything.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 200
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