RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 2:38:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Again there are already programs to help the vets transition into civilian life, job training programs, housing assistance, medical assistance...


This veteran spoke with the Veteran Adviser at the state career center and the only (marginally) useful thing he had to say was to sign up on the state job site, which I already knew from the career center orientation.

Additionally, there are more programs for brand new vets than older vets, and there are a lot more of us.

Also, getting medical care for female-specific issues has been really fucking difficult.


This veteran went back to the Veteran's Adviser at the career center today, mentioned the vet bill that was voted down, and asked about existing programs. We covered all the ones for which I am NOT qualified, and then found VRAP. This pays for 12 months of schooling, but does nothing for a job NOW. I'm skeptical about the value of the DOL job assistance at the end of the training.

http://benefits.va.gov/vow/education.htm

The VRAP offers 12 months of training assistance to Veterans who:

- Are at least 35 but no more than 60 years old
- Are unemployed on the date of application
- Received an other than dishonorable discharge
- Are not be eligible for any other VA education benefit program (e.g.: the Post-9/11 GI Bill, Montgomery GI Bill, Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Assistance)
- Are not in receipt of VA compensation due to unemployability
- Are not enrolled in a federal or state job training program

The program is limited to 45,000 participants from July 1, 2012, through September 30, 2012, and 54,000 participants from October 1, 2012, through March 31, 2014. Participants must attend full-time in order to receive up to 12 months of assistance equal to the monthly full-time payment rate under the Montgomery GI Bill–Active Duty program ($1,564 effective October 1, 2012). DOL will offer employment assistance to every Veteran who participates upon completion of the program.

Participants must be enrolled in a VA approved program of education offered by a community college or technical school. The program must lead to an Associate Degree, Non-College Degree, or a Certificate, and train the Veteran for a high demand occupation.





kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 2:45:47 PM)

This is the only program I've seen that puts people to work directly:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/bill-to-create-veterans-job-corps-fails-to-advance/2012/09/19/a56b532c-0270-11e2-91e7-2962c74e7738_blog.html

Legislation to create a Veterans Job Corps suffered a major defeat Wednesday afternoon after Republicans successfully blocked the bill’s advance with a budgetary point of order.

The Senate voted 58 to 40 largely on party lines in favor of waiving the procedural objection, short of the three-fifths majority needed. Republicans said the bill was in violation of the Budget Control Act, prohibiting new programs that would add to the deficit.

“They’re going to kill it on a technicality,” Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), one of the bill’s co-sponsors, said on the floor before the vote. “That’s the bottom line here. That’s what’s going on here, and it’s sad.”

Nelson said Republican opposition stemmed from refusal to support an initiative that originated in the White House. The corps, loosely based on the Civilian Conservation Corps created during the Great Depression, would put veterans to work on preserving and restoring federal, state and local lands.

Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) said GOP concerns were about the $1 billion price tag for the program over five years.

“If in fact we want to help veterans get jobs, there are lots of ways to do it,” Coburn said on the floor before the vote. “We need to make sure the job training programs we have are working, and they’re not.”

“It’s both shocking and shameful that Republicans today chose to kill a bill to put America’s veterans back to work,” Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.), chairman of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee and a bill co-sponsor, said in a statement after the vote. “At a time when one in four young veterans are unemployed, Republicans should have been able, for just this once, to put aside the politics of obstruction and to help these men and women provide for their families.”

Murray called the vote a “stark reminder that Senator McConnell and Senate Republicans are willing to do absolutely anything to fulfill the pledge he made nearly two years ago to defeat President Obama.”

Murray said budgetary set-asides would pay for the cost of the bill.

Several Republicans, including Scott Brown of Massachusetts and Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, joined Democrats in supporting the motion to waive the budgetary objections.

Murray and Nelson said the vote effectively kills the legislation, but Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), the ranking member of the Senate Budget Committee who raised the budget point of order, said the action simply requires the veterans committee to come back with a bill that does not add to the deficit.

Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.), the ranking member of the Senate veterans committee, voted against allowing the job corps bill to advance. He has introduced alternative legislation that includes several veterans job-training initiatives but removes the provision establishing the job corps.

Before the vote, the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, the largest organization representing the post-9/11 generation of veterans, issued an appeal to allow the bill to move forward.

“Partisan bickering should never stand in the way of creating job opportunities for the New Greatest Generation, especially with a 10.9 percent unemployment rate,” said IAVA founder Paul Rieckhoff.




xBullx -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 3:16:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

“Partisan bickering should never stand in the way of creating job opportunities for the New Greatest Generation, especially with a 10.9 percent unemployment rate,” said IAVA founder Paul Rieckhoff.


Listen, I'm a Vet, both my sons are, in fact the oldest is still serving. So I know a good many Vets, their attitudes, mentality and motivations. A good reason the jobless rate is so high is because we have used more Guard and Reserve Forces than ever before. A fair quantity of these troops didn't have full time jobs before they left. And many had civilian jobs they weren't crazy about if they did work. So they come back and are on recovery time (various names and time frames apply to this action), they get pay and benefits for a designated time and after that time is up they are eligible for unemployment. Many make use of this time to "enjoy life" for a while and some probably work a few odd jobs, go to school or whatever. But with these extended unemployment benefits they are able to get back a bit of what they feel they are more than entitled too.

So while a bill to help them discover employment is a positive devise, this bill was nothing more than a political ploy to garner support on one hand and stir unrest for the party that stated they wouldn’t vote to spend more money. The framers of this bill had little more than subversive intent. Spin it however you want, it is what it is. The problem still isn’t whether someone would hire a Vet, hell I prefer them. But, the real problem is THERE ARE NO WORTHWHILE JOBS AVAILABLE. That and after you get back from the combat zone, making all the tax free cash and harboring benefits like most don’t have out here, it’s hard to go back to Home Depot, a Factory, Packing House or whatever tedious job that is available.




kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 3:45:09 PM)

After I served, I did go back to a factory job, and while there, went to school at night and got a Business degree, got a better job, and while there got my Computer Science degree.

http://www.businessweek.com/finance/occupy-wall-street/archives/2011/11/the_vets_job_crisis_is_worse_than_you_think.html

...“The numbers don’t lie,” says Ryan Gallucci, deputy legislative director for the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Washington. “The new veterans are going into the unemployment pile.”

The “new” part is key. From age 35 on, for the most part veterans have a lower unemployment rate than non-vets. In surveys earlier this decade, veterans aged 25-34 also did well. The BLS released figures in 2005 that showed veterans in that age group with a lower unemployment rate than their peers (just 3.8 percent vs. 5.0 percent.) For 2008, the rate for vets 25-34 was just a shade above that for those who hadn’t served in the military. Now for that group it’s 11.7 percent, well above the 9.2 percent rate for non-veterans. What might be most worrying is that what’s happening with younger vets looks like a leading indicator: the cohort of veterans now entering the work force in the midst of the economic malaise may point to a future in which veterans are falling behind their peers.

Why would someone coming out of military service have a harder time finding a job? Think about the demographics of a young soldier. Most are men, and unemployment is worse now for men: 9.5 percent in October vs. 8.5 percent for women. Younger vets are coming right out of high school; the job market punishes those with less education. Many vets come from and return to rural and rust-belt areas that are struggling. And the cut-throat competition for jobs has been hardest on those out of work the longest; fair or not, eight years in the Army is viewed by some employers as eight years without private-sector skills and experience. At a job summit held by the House Committee on Veterans Affairs in September, Gallucci says, some companies said many vets have a hard time adjusting to corporate culture.

[image]http://www.businessweek.com/finance/occupy-wall-street/assets_c/2011/11/veteranschart-thumb-450x271-381.png[/image]




kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 3:51:06 PM)

Republicans Lie About 'Support Our Troops'

For a decade, Republicans have been screaming at Americans to “support our troops.”

But, they don’t really support our troops. Their constant chanting was originally code to support the Republican administration and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If the Republicans truly wanted to support the troops, they would have demanded—early in the wars—better armament and vehicles for the troops. Troops in Iraq had to “up-armor” their Humvees with their own ingenuity and money because Congress failed to appropriate enough protection.

The Republicans should have been outraged that after field medics performed extraordinary service to keep wounded from dying that the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center was negligent in providing health care. It took a Washington Post investigative series and actions by the Obama administration, not the Bush–Cheney administration, to straighten out that mess.

American civilians sent millions of packages of everything from soap to towels to shaving lotion for the troops because Congress didn’t provide many of the basic necessities.

And now the Republicans have blocked the Veterans Job Corps bill in the Senate. That bill would have provided $1 billion over five years to hire 20,000 recent veterans by giving them priority in jobs as first responders. It would also have provided career advisers for the veterans. That bill would have helped not just veterans, but all Americans by strengthening fire, police, and first aid/paramedic assistance.

The vote in the senate was 58–40 to pass that bill. But, typical of Republican obstructionism, it failed. Although there was a clear majority, the bill failed because the Republicans used a technicality in Senate rules to force a higher standard–requiring 60 votes, not a simple majority, to pass the appropriation.

Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) led the opposition to the bill because he claimed it was reckless spending and he didn’t want to spend any more of the taxpayer money on something apparently as outrageous as helping veterans.

However, the bill was fully funded solely by increasing tax collections from Medicare providers who were delinquent in paying taxes, and by requiring persons applying for passports to be current in paying taxes. Pay the delinquent taxes and be eligible for further Medicare payments and passports. Seemed simple enough.

But, Tom Coburn and the Republicans stuck to their mantra of no more spending, even at the expense of combat veterans. The veterans just want some assistance to get a job and not to be a burden on unemployment and welfare rolls.

One billion dollars. Fully funded. That’s what the bill called for. A billion dollars to help combat veterans. You know, the ones the Republicans sent into war in Iraq that we later learned was a war built upon lies.

Here’s another statistic. The cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan has already cost Americans $2.3–$2.7 trillion, according to a Brown University analysis of war spending. That’s not even the total cost. The analysts believe the war will exceed $4 trillion by the time all costs, including $1 trillion in interest payments, are figured in. That total expense is more than 4,000 times more than the Democrats asked for to help returning veterans. And, that $4 trillion, generously pushed by a war-mongering Congress, never met even the barest of financial constraints the Republicans put upon a bill to help the veterans they sent into battle.

But, the real reason the Republicans killed the veterans job bill has nothing to do with their public claims they are trying to cut government costs or to reduce what they believe is Big Government. It has everything to do with petty politics. Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), Senate minority leader, had said “the single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.” He could have said the Republicans wanted to move the country forward, to help rebuild and improve the nation’s infrastructure, help those who became unemployed and then homeless because of the recession, establish stronger regulations to prevent fraud, improve medical care for all Americans, assure the success of small business, increase the security of Americans both at home and overseas, or to help combat veterans readjust to civilian life. But he didn’t say those were his party’s top priority. The top priority was to defeat President Obama.

And so the Republicans blocked more than 80 percent of all bills submitted in the Senate, including legislation to provide health care for 9/11 first responders, end tax breaks for corporations that outsource jobs, stop price gouging at the gas pumps, require oil companies to use some of their profits to develop clean alternative energy, and end a $4 billion a year subsidy to the oil companies—the top 5 had more than $137 billion profit in 2011.
(The Republicans did manage to introduce more than 250 bills about abortion, family relationships, marriage, and religion, but not one for jobs creation.)


Because of their selfish hubris, the Republicans not only created gridlock in Congress, they refused to allow a bill that had the support of a majority of the Senate to go forward to help combat veterans. After all, that might be seen as supporting the President and not doing the Republicans’ Number 1 job—to stop a second term.

Walter Brasch and his wife, Rosemary, were editors of The Oasis, a newspaper sponsored by the Red Cross for families of combat troops. Walter Brasch’s latest book is Before the First Snow: Stories from the Revolution.




xBullx -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 4:08:41 PM)


I think I explained my point quite well and didn't have any need for third party political divel. A thousand bills won't get a man a job that DOES NOT EXIST.




kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 4:31:16 PM)

The bill would have funded/created job positions:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/bill-to-create-veterans-job-corps-fails-to-advance/2012/09/19/a56b532c-0270-11e2-91e7-2962c74e7738_blog.html

The corps, loosely based on the Civilian Conservation Corps created during the Great Depression, would put veterans to work on preserving and restoring federal, state and local lands.




xBullx -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 6:27:34 PM)

What part of 16 trillion don't you get?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

The bill would have funded/created job positions:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/bill-to-create-veterans-job-corps-fails-to-advance/2012/09/19/a56b532c-0270-11e2-91e7-2962c74e7738_blog.html

The corps, loosely based on the Civilian Conservation Corps created during the Great Depression, would put veterans to work on preserving and restoring federal, state and local lands.





FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 7:03:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

“Partisan bickering should never stand in the way of creating job opportunities for the New Greatest Generation, especially with a 10.9 percent unemployment rate,” said IAVA founder Paul Rieckhoff.


So while a bill to help them discover employment is a positive devise, this bill was nothing more than a political ploy to garner support on one hand and stir unrest for the party that stated they wouldn’t vote to spend more money. The framers of this bill had little more than subversive intent. Spin it however you want, it is what it is. The problem still isn’t whether someone would hire a Vet, hell I prefer them. But, the real problem is THERE ARE NO WORTHWHILE JOBS AVAILABLE. That and after you get back from the combat zone, making all the tax free cash and harboring benefits like most don’t have out here, it’s hard to go back to Home Depot, a Factory, Packing House or whatever tedious job that is available.



The effort to help Vets is HARDLY a "this year" thing. It could probably be framed as a "this administration" thing since  the last one didn't even want to properly armor it's troops in the theater.
But that said you must be proud of John Boehner and Tom Coburn and Co for all they've done for Vets.
   My father was a Vet too. He came home and worked his way through law school. I have a different view than you apparently. Fair enough.




Lucylastic -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 7:23:11 PM)

Im sure people dont mind waiting for jobs/benefits or help until the 16 trillion is no more




kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 7:27:35 PM)

quote:

What part of 16 trillion don't you get?


Unlike the war, this jobs bill was funded.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackie-ostfeld/gop-blocks-passage-of-vet_b_1898082.html

...If any two issues exist, that should break the partisan divide and unite us as a nation, they are support for veterans and protecting our natural heritage. The Veterans Jobs Corps, a top priority for the Obama Administration, was detailed in the President's budget recommendations to Congress earlier this year. The bill would have increased skills training and job placement for veterans, primarily those who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, while at the same time start to whittle down backlogged maintenance projects overwhelming our nation's public lands. According to the bill's sponsor, Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL), the National Park Service alone has deferred maintenance totaling over $11 billion. The Veterans Jobs Corps would also increase employment among our returning service members as police, firefighters and first responders. Experts say the $1 billion bill would have paid for itself in ten years.

While the Veterans Jobs Corps may not have led to world peace, or even brought work to the 720,000 unemployed veterans across our nation, it would have been a big step in the right direction. The bill was supported by groups like the American Legion and the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. It's also supported by the Sierra Club.

Since 2007, the Sierra Club's Mission Outdoors program with generous support from the Sierra Club Foundation has provided outdoor nature-based opportunities to over 50,000 members of the military and veteran communities, primarily children. Through partnerships with the National Military Family Association, Armed Services YMCA, Blue Star Families and a host of other organizations working to support military kids, families and veterans, the Sierra Club has sent kids to camps, led veterans on backpacking expeditions and is now training active duty soldiers, veterans, spouses and care-givers to become Sierra Club outings leaders so they can help bring nature into the lives of their loved ones and their communities.

Creating employment opportunities on our public lands, where veterans not only earn a paycheck, but benefit from the healing nature of nature, is something we should all be able to get behind. Stacy Bare, an Iraq veteran himself (and the Director of Sierra Club's Mission Outdoors program) said "I am deeply disappointed that politics has gotten in the way of supporting veterans. This legislation would have eased the transition of our service men and women coming home by placing them in positions where the skills they learned in combat and the military can easily translate into continued service to our Nation."

In his 9/11 Huffington Post piece, Bare also discusses how the outdoors helped with his return from war, "it was this sense of a second chance at life, a new mission in the outdoors and in the countryside I defended, which allowed me to come home and not just survive, but also thrive."




xBullx -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 7:27:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL


The effort to help Vets is HARDLY a "this year" thing. It could probably be framed as a "this administration" thing since  the last one didn't even want to properly armor it's troops in the theater.
But that said you must be proud of John Boehner and Tom Coburn and Co for all they've done for Vets.
   My father was a Vet too. He came home and worked his way through law school. I have a different view than you apparently. Fair enough.


I don't know Boehner, Coburn or many of the Company you suggest. I know my Rep and Senator, and frankly I would like to see a good deal more work, less regulation and intestinal fortitude out of them. Concurrently, I don't just hang around here yucking it up. The Federal and State Switchboards are on speed dial. And I take pride in letting them know what I think. And they actually get back to me. The other Reps and senators are the responsibility of others, maybe some around here, maybe we should see how active they are beyond the bitching rooms.

I'm on my third company since leaving the Army; I built my first, merged and sold out to my partner to start anew. Now I'm building a company to hand off to my sons and frankly I don't give a shit about who's in office when I put my mind to work, I get it done. However this present administration is regulating me to death. I for the first time since I returned to civilian life wonder if it's really worth it. Yes I'm one of those dreadful job creators that the left thinks should hand his hard earned money to someone parked on their ass. I do share my wealth with those that help me make my way. I run a completely owner operator trucking firm. I have started men out and helped them get their own trucks and in fact have taken losses to do so. But I've never been let down by those men. I help those that can and will help themselves. I don't do it for a fuckin' vote; I do it because giving back and giving back in the right way is important to me.

Good character is not spawned by words on a teleprompter. I don't vote present, I am present....................

Additionally, my intention is not self-aggrandizement, it is merely to illustrate who I am in order to facilitate some small degree of credibility.




xBullx -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 7:44:01 PM)

Something else that's bothering the shit out of me with this government program of creating fluff employment for political spite. If you want these men and women to maintain government jobs, keep them in the damn service. Think of the jobs they already have and the money it saves us training a bunch more men/women to do what they're already doing.

We've got tons of Truck Drivers, Engineers, Infantrymen and other capable types that can get out and clean up these federal and state properties and when Iran wigs out we don't have to worry about a draft, we just have them trade in their shovel ready projects for combat operations.

How's that for some spin???




itsSIRtou -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 7:51:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


I think I explained my point quite well and didn't have any need for third party political divel. A thousand bills won't get a man a job that DOES NOT EXIST.



but one would actually,...... one that let the 11+ years of bush tax cuts to the wealthy go ....and replaced it with "Obama era" tax CREDITS to the wealthy & corporations for PERMANENTLY hiring vets and the other "49%" of people that romney has such distain for....

bet Me that jobs here in the USA would suddenly pop up all over the place if the wealthy had to actually DO something to get money off their taxes....





FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 9:21:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Im sure people dont mind waiting for jobs/benefits or help until the 16 trillion is no more


Ah ... the Coburn recovery plan. when you nreach the moment of truth, simply pull your pockets inside out and say "Thanks for serving" and if they are a female vet, as an authorized member of the GOP, you can add "Kiss the bunny's nose?".




tazzygirl -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/28/2012 11:18:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Im sure people dont mind waiting for jobs/benefits or help until the 16 trillion is no more


Wont ever be "no more"... wont be "no less" either, especially as long as so many people arent working.




HardHum -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/29/2012 12:13:07 AM)

I notice they didn't mention anything about reducing Congressional mooching. Washington DC is the biggest mooch around.




kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/29/2012 4:47:43 AM)

quote:

Something else that's bothering the shit out of me with this government program of creating fluff employment for political spite

What fluff?

the National Park Service alone has deferred maintenance totaling over $11 billion.

quote:

If you want these men and women to maintain government jobs, keep them in the damn service. Think of the jobs they already have and the money it saves us training a bunch more men/women to do what they're already doing.

We've got tons of Truck Drivers, Engineers, Infantrymen and other capable types that can get out and clean up these federal and state properties and when Iran wigs out we don't have to worry about a draft, we just have them trade in their shovel ready projects for combat operations.

When my husband went into the reserves, he changed specialties into CE (Civil Engineering.) Cross training is already an option. These people want OUT of the military. Throwing a reenlistment bonus at me would not have kept me in. I also wouldn't have been fooled by "maintain parks in the US" because I know the same skills transfer to maintaining flight lines that are under fire.




kalikshama -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/29/2012 5:01:06 AM)

quote:

We've got tons of Truck Drivers, Engineers, Infantrymen and other capable types that can get out and clean up these federal and state properties and when Iran wigs out we don't have to worry about a draft, we just have them trade in their shovel ready projects for combat operations.

How's that for some spin???


Complaining about the 16 trillion dollar deficit and then a few posts later supporting group troops in IRAN is indeed some spin.



[image]local://upfiles/1052865/F70FFE6BE84B49C79ACAD8778E850D70.jpg[/image]




xBullx -> RE: GOP Senators take stand against moochers (9/29/2012 7:14:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

When my husband went into the reserves, he changed specialties into CE (Civil Engineering.) Cross training is already an option. These people want OUT of the military. Throwing a reenlistment bonus at me would not have kept me in. I also wouldn't have been fooled by "maintain parks in the US" because I know the same skills transfer to maintaining flight lines that are under fire.


So YOU wanted out, just not off the teat.

Really, so your answer is turning our troops into dependents of the nanny state. You do realize that a great many successful businesspersons have a military background and they earned their own way and are damn proud of it.

Our troops are taught resilience, self-worth, uncompromised determination and a greater degree of intestinal fortitude than I see in vast majority of elected officials, and yet you think you need to pamper and hand carry them because you pity them? Am I really supposed to buy that?




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