RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK.

RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 5:54:10 PM)
quote: As anyone knows, it takes more effort to remain constructive and disciplined in posting than to simply say the first thing that comes to one's mind I think Aswad we are respectfully different in our approaches. I have found the first thing that comes to my mind is MY truth...What comes after careful consideration and editing is not from the heart and not really me. I am honest in my speech and to remain that way I have to speak with my mind and heart and say what I feel when I feel it. I think the faster one answers a post the stronger they feel on the subject and a true measure of their feelings. Just me but I find online communicating hard enough without trying to be too careful how something is said rather then just coming out with it...Yes my way does cause hurt feelings and often we should not say what we truly feel or think... But what the hell at least people know who I really am. Butch

fucktoyprincess -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 5:57:26 PM)
Your perspective is always well thought out and articulated - even if you didn't read all I wrote (but how could such a thing happen?!!) [:)] And, we may not always agree, but at times, we do. Regardless, I appreciate everyone who is here to further dialogue. And I do feel sad when people who furthered dialogue (by offering their perspective - even if a minority one), leave. Diversity of perspective is what lends these message boards (and any such forum) its richness. I'm not particularly interested in sitting around simply rubbing the backs of others who agree with me to the exclusion of actually engaging in ideas. Learning actually comes from the gray areas. And gray areas are gray, because we do not yet have sufficient answers. And this is where a variety of perspective is not only desirable, but necessary. Be well.

FirmhandKY -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 6:14:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad MM has strayed, at times, to the far side of that line. KY has, in my view, stayed on the right side in the post in question, but only on a technicality (i.e. I'm of the opinion that he's on the far side as far as intent is concerned). Which is why you praise him, and block me? [8D] quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad (Discussion about the social dynamic of online communities) I think your view is accurate as far as it goes in general, but wrong on some important specifics. Online communities of "high quality" do not tend to last long. Effective moderation is generally the key to a healthy group, and I agree that currently these forums have the best moderation that I've seen, since I first started reading (and later posting to) them. The problem that kills such communities is when new members do not feel free to join into the discussions and debates, and "old guard" members stifle anyone or anything that differs from their preconceived views. New posters are often hindered by "old guard" members who immediately make fun of them, and by generally small groups (cliques) that feed and reinforce each other when attacking others. Now, not talking specifically about MM, but in general: It is to the advantage of the community when such counter-productive groups or individuals are reigned in or leave. Such posters may occasionally have interesting or pertinent information to share, and have value. However, you have to weight that value against the damage that they are also doing in the community. Never will everyone agree on where to place the divide, but likewise, you can't make a blanket statement that the loss of a specific individual will lead to the death of the community, especially one that is as large as CollarChat. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad So, please, just feel used by a pontificating, pompous asshole, rather than replied to. [:D] If this is in response to my comment about you pontificating, then you are just assuming the "asshole" part. I do not think you are one, and in general think you are a very intelligent and clear thinking posters. In general. Since you've blocked me, we really can't discuss most of your points, so I'll just leave it at that. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 6:21:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Obviously, you aren't actually interested in a discussion, simply in pontificating. I see it as simple, honest and necessary feedback that you can take or leave, as you like. The assessment that I have no interest in discussing it is absolutely correct, as the term "pontificating" would necessarily be a framing preface to your participation in any such discussion, which does not motivate me to have one. IWYW, — Aswad. I'm sorry Aswad, I thought you had me on block? Which is where my "pontificating" comment comes from. I have no problem with your opinion, and feedback. And I don't think we would get into an "argument" vice a "discussion" about the issue, but you simply seemed to have preemptively closed out that possibility in your original post, by telling me in some detail why you had blocked me. Firm

Aswad -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 6:25:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I think Aswad we are respectfully different in our approaches. Variety is the spice of life. I don't have a problem with the difference in approach to posting. Sometimes, what comes from the heart will speak to the heart, and what it conveys can be brilliant when it is actually received. What I try to do when I post, is to communicate an idea. This requires me to put it into words in a second language with a dramatically different phrasal structure and prose, with a vocabulary that is so similar that the "false friends" really bite you in the ass if you're not careful. As in any communication, I have to bear in mind the audience, and where the other participants in a debate are coming from, else my idea will not be conveyed by my words. I have to try to avoid misunderstandings, and head off whatever I think might end up standing in the way of a clear understanding of what I'm saying. Mostly because I'm not very good with words, or with people. I have a friend to whom I can say a couple of words from the heart, unedited, and he'll instantly see where I'm going and what I've been thinking, without the need to elaborate on any of it (most of the time, anyway). He and I share a lot of background, probably have almost exactly the same level of knowledge, have a similar mental structure, and are probably at an identical level of intelligence. For the bulk of the people I speak with, one or more of the above will not be the case. Thus, I put in some effort to pad the difference. quote: I think the faster one answers a post the stronger they feel on the subject and a true measure of their feelings. My feelings are often dramatically different from what I post, and intentionally so. For one thing, my feelings mostly make sense in my own frame of reference, and are mostly of interest to people that actually have to live with me. What I can bring to the table is usually related to other things than my feelings on a subject. In fact, I only rarely voice my own opinions, and quite often play devil's advocate. Among other things, I think it's more useful for me to try to make sure more ground is covered, rather than covering the ground where I live or covering it very emphatically. Most of the time, when I post an opinion, I'm posting what I think my opinion would be if I shared the frame of reference of the other poster. To actually share my own, personal opinion would often require writing an essay on my frame of reference as a preface, and my posts are already too long for many of the posters on the board as it is. Besides which, as I said ages ago when starting out on these boards, I am a rather private person and quite selective about what I share. I'm more inclined to share my mind than my heart. quote: Just me but I find online communicating hard enough without trying to be too careful how something is said rather then just coming out with it. Part of what makes online communication hard is dealing with the other parties not being present, and dealing with the fact that the audience will be more diverse than in almost any offline setting. We have adopted different strategies to meet the challenge, and I've no problem with either approach. You've been quite civil when the two of us have disagreed on something, which I appreciate, regardless of the actual disagreements. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 6:27:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Your perspective is always well thought out and articulated - even if you didn't read all I wrote (but how could such a thing happen?!!) [:)] Thank you. I did read it all, but I managed to miss that last bit on the first reading. Mea culpa. IWYW, — Aswad.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 6:31:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Online communities of "high quality" do not tend to last long. Effective moderation is generally the key to a healthy group, and I agree that currently these forums have the best moderation that I've seen, since I first started reading (and later posting to) them. The problem that kills such communities is when new members do not feel free to join into the discussions and debates, and "old guard" members stifle anyone or anything that differs from their preconceived views. New posters are often hindered by "old guard" members who immediately make fun of them, and by generally small groups (cliques) that feed and reinforce each other when attacking others. This problem is pervasive on many online communities. I attribute this to the fact that many people are fundamentally insecure. It reminds me very much of the mean kids in high school sort of syndrome. In addition to ad hominem attack, the other thing that cliques do, in high school, in life, and on the Internet, is ignore. It is not a mature adult approach to dialogue or the concept of community. But in my experience in life in general, some of these high school behaviors never seem to disappear. And it is a shame. Things would be richer if people would take ideas at face value instead of engaging in blanket dismissal of all ideas from a particular source. I try to focus on what people are saying, and I try to understand what they are saying through the lens of what I already know about them, but I try not to dismiss ideas solely by who they are coming from. But I don't hold my breath about other people's ability to do the same. People are very judgmental about people. I would rather they be judgmental about the ideas. Two very different approaches. To say the least, I am not holding my breath. Let us just say, I continue to participate knowing what the general limitations are. And the general limitations are rather self evident to anyone who spends any time on forums such as this. [sm=2cents.gif]

Aswad -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 7:48:40 PM)
Good points, ftp. Ignoring ideas, rather than people, is one of those good things I used to do rather zealously. In the end, unfortunately, it just came down to either changing that policy or having to exclude myself. At the moment, the feedback I've received is to the effect that the latter would have been less welcome than the former. If that should change, I would of course give serious thought to revising the choice, as I'm committed to attempting to be constructive insofar as I am able. That said, there's a difference between high school and adult life on this point, ideally, in that the underlying reasons are different. Dismissing a tool because it's usually applied toward the wrong end goal is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think most adults will, to some extent, ignore the constant and extensive suffering in some parts of the world to be better able to deal with life in their own part of the world, which ultimately benefits those whose suffering they ignore by allowing them to produce wealth that can be shared to alleviate the suffering in question, whereas not ignoring it would often lead to greater net suffering. Not that this applies here, but it serves to illustrate the point that goals and intentions matter, that dismissing all applications of an idea has problems not entirely unlike those of dismissing every idea from a single source. I think I should clarify, since in the past I myself have been vocal about the practice you advocate, that I'm not looking to ignore every idea FirmhandKY puts forth. I'm looking to excuse myself from his company because I'm not interested in tolerating his behavior. This, unfortunately, also leads to not seeing the ideas he might put forth, save when they are quoted by others. I fully intend to adress any interesting points he might raise that other people quote. I just don't see voluntarily associating with him as being constructive in its outcome when he's unwilling to entertain the notion that his behavior might have been at fault and compound it by being condescending about the perfectly civil feedback presented. No forum has a button that ignores the presentation while preserving the ideas within, which means either the presentation must change, or the only compromise left is the arguably unfortunate one of muting his expression in its entirety. But I'll give it another shot out of respect for your opinions. IWYW, — Aswad.

VideoAdminAlpha -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 7:48:57 PM)
This is a fast reply to everyone on this thread and the other one referenced. Today a ticket was filed on that thread about the post concerning the jokes. The report pointed out that that the SUBJECT of the thread was the 9/11 tweets and that a post about jokes of any kind was in fact, off topic. This is something I missed and I apologize for. The post, and resultant replies to it, WERE PULLED FOR THAT REASON ONLY. The poster was informed, per our guidelines, that they are able to start a standalone thread with the post that they made, because the post ITSELF does not violate TOS per se, it violated the guideline of being on topic in that thread. Although I do not make a habit of explaining the actions of the Collarme Team, I did not want there to be ANY misconception as to why the post was pulled. It was pulled in strict accordance with site policy. Again, my apologies, when I made my decision at the time, it was with the thought of the jokes themselves, I totally dropped the ball about whether or not it was germaine to the topic. Alpha

Aswad -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 8:04:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I'm sorry Aswad, I thought you had me on block? I did. DomKen quoted you. You'll note my post has "(in reply to DomKen)" in the lower right corner. As I'll explain in the next paragraph, I've taken you off block again now. I would appreciate if you try to bear in mind that I'm outside my comfort zone with you at this point. I'll try to make allowances in the interest of harmony, and I hope you'll do the same. quote: Which is where my "pontificating" comment comes from. In that case, it was entirely misplaced, as I did block you after writing that post. Based on what ftp said, I'm entertaining the notion that I may have been rash in doing so. How this exchange evolves will determine whether I was or not- and if I was, I'll admit to that. quote: I have no problem with your opinion, and feedback. And I don't think we would get into an "argument" vice a "discussion" about the issue, but you simply seemed to have preemptively closed out that possibility in your original post, by telling me in some detail why you had blocked me. I did say it was a regrettable thing. And I pointed out that other people would no doubt be happy to relay your words if you were inclined to argue that there's a valid defense for the behavior I found unacceptable. In that sense, the possibility was not closed off. You immediately responded by calling it pontification, though, which I hope you'll agree makes for a poor starting point if you were looking to have any reasonable debate as to whether it was the right call on my part or not. Intentionally or not, fucktoyprincess convinced me to give it another shot. IWYW, — Aswad.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 8:05:34 PM)
I am really tired tonight, and my head so desperately wants to alight on my pillow, but you continue to raise points I find compelling. Okay, I grant, that at times, it is important to ignore in order to simply move forward. And then the whole issue becomes, has one been judicious in what, or whom, one has chosen to ignore. And one has to ask oneself, how much difficulty is it worth? And of course, people's tolerance for difficulty will vary, whether we are talking of sad situations around the globe, or a cantankerous person on the boards. quote: No forum has a button that ignores the presentation while preserving the ideas within, which means either the presentation must change, or the only compromise left is the arguably unfortunate one of muting his expression in its entirety. Haha. Point well taken. No, I must agree that separating the speaker entirely from their ideas doesn't work, because, who one is does, in fact, inform others and helps us understand the perspective from which the ideas come. In other words, some ideas are more palatable to me, or worthy of pause, when expressed from someone who has had a particular set of experiences. After all, we are all products of who we are and what we've experienced. I do find very good use in the "temporary ignore". I do this when I cannot tolerate something/someone at a particular moment in time. Then, I need to separate. But this separation, this "time out" is only a temporary one and very short lived. I cannot put anything/anyone on permanent ignore. I am not wired for that. As a result, I will consciously ignore something/someone for a period of time. But I don't use the hide/block functions. I find that kind of ostrich move is not something that I feel comfortable with. I eventually have to take a peek again, so to speak. And this is where perhaps I wish the OP had opted for a temporary ignore rather than a full-fledged departure. More perhaps tomorrow.

Aswad -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 8:31:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Which is why you praise him, and block me? [8D] No, I clarified why I praise him and also where I think he could stand to improve. Butch articulated the latter quite well. I believe I've also been clear about why I had you on block for a while, but if any part of it is not clear, you're no longer blocked and can ask about anything that might be unclear. quote: Online communities of "high quality" do not tend to last long. This is what I was saying, actually. The factors involved in longevity have been studied. Like marriages, high quality communities can last, but rarely do. Like most marriages, most high quality communities can be saved, but rarely are. quote: The problem that kills such communities is when new members do not feel free to join into the discussions and debates, and "old guard" members stifle anyone or anything that differs from their preconceived views. New posters are often hindered by "old guard" members who immediately make fun of them, and by generally small groups (cliques) that feed and reinforce each other when attacking others. This is another recognized factor in long term viability, and something that I have occasionally said myself. It is also a part of the bit I pointed out about the importance of key members of a community. The key members are not the cliques, as a rule, though there can obviously be overlap at times. Cliques have the opposite effect: the true pillars of a community are often not the ones seen as such. I incidentally don't think MM has been picking more on newcomers than the average posters here, nor have you as far as I can recall. I may be remembering incorrectly on either point, of course, but that's how it is in my head at the moment. I would certainly welcome a debate on the subject of the detrimental effect of cliques picking on newcomers, and I would like to think I have been reasonably fair with newcomers most of the time. Then again, I imagine most would like to think that of themselves, so if you don't share that impression, I would also welcome having it pointed out, preferrably with references so I can see where I've gone wrong and improve. I'm certainly not perfect, but I'm not adverse to improving. quote: you can't make a blanket statement that the loss of a specific individual will lead to the death of the community, especially one that is as large as CollarChat. I haven't made such a blanket statement, either. I have said there are a couple dozen posters that keep me here, and that the process that determines viability has a self accelerating factor in it, among other things, which means each of those will be important as far as viability is concerned, though none are individually indispensable. quote: If this is in response to my comment about you pontificating, then you are just assuming the "asshole" part. The asshole was all mine. [:D] I did borrow "pontificating" from your post, but that was self-deprecating tongue-in-cheek humor on my part, not an attempt at projecting an opinion onto your post that wasn't in evidence. I'm well aware that you never said I was an asshole, and did not intend to imply that you had said so or even thought so. If I gave that impression, I apologize for that. My delivery can be off, too. quote: we really can't discuss most of your points We can now. Let's? IWYW, — Aswad.

FirmhandKY -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 11:08:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: we really can't discuss most of your points We can now. Let's? Great, Aswad. However, I had to go pick up Treasure at the airport tonight, and was away from the computer for several hours. Tomorrow and the rest of the week will be a very busy one for me, and I'm not sure how much more time/energy that I'll have to expend on CM during that time. However, I do wish to discuss several of the issues you have raised, so this may become a "semi-necro" thread as I gain the time. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/23/2012 11:19:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha This is a fast reply to everyone on this thread and the other one referenced. Today a ticket was filed on that thread about the post concerning the jokes. The report pointed out that that the SUBJECT of the thread was the 9/11 tweets and that a post about jokes of any kind was in fact, off topic. This is something I missed and I apologize for. The post, and resultant replies to it, WERE PULLED FOR THAT REASON ONLY. The poster was informed, per our guidelines, that they are able to start a standalone thread with the post that they made, because the post ITSELF does not violate TOS per se, it violated the guideline of being on topic in that thread. Although I do not make a habit of explaining the actions of the Collarme Team, I did not want there to be ANY misconception as to why the post was pulled. It was pulled in strict accordance with site policy. Again, my apologies, when I made my decision at the time, it was with the thought of the jokes themselves, I totally dropped the ball about whether or not it was germaine to the topic. Alpha Alpha, I understand your actions, and you won't get any guff from me on it. However, I may expand and amplify my comments that I made to you privately, later in this thread. Not as an attempt to question the actions, but to hopefully illuminate several points in the discussion, in the interests of continuing to grow a vibrant and healthy community. Firm

tweakabelle -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/24/2012 12:47:52 AM)
One area where issues of racism and name calling seem to crop up with alarming regularity is in Palestine/Israel threads. Accusations of anti Semitism are commonly levelled at those who criticise Israel or its policies. Those criticised tend to reject the criticism and in return, accuse those making the criticism of conflating politicial criticism with racial abuse in order to silence political criticism of Israel or its policies. One thing that contributes to this is that there seems to be two different definitions/understandings of what anti-Semitism is. Most people would, I hope, agree that anti-Semitism refers to disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. In the USA there seems to be a genuine belief held by some that either any or excessive criticism of the Israeli State, on any grounds, constitutes anti-Semitism. I know of nowhere else, (and that includes Israel itself) where this definition is accepted. Until this matter is sorted out and a single standard agreed and operating, it seems inevitable that this confusion, and the accompanying rancour will persist. So this seems to me to be as good a time as any to have that discussion and hopefully find some agreement on this contentious issue.

shivermetimbers -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/24/2012 12:58:04 AM)
You have the wrong picture up there. That avatar is a picture of something that has balls. Get over it already.

crazyml -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/24/2012 1:07:33 AM)
Leaving over this? Crikey. Well, there's a turn up for the books. I didn't have you down as the "grab your toys and run away" type. You live and learn.

Rule -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/24/2012 6:16:37 AM)
MM is a dom with strong convictions. Thus he is acting in character.

DaddySatyr -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/24/2012 6:27:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Leaving over this? Crikey. Well, there's a turn up for the books. I didn't have you down as the "grab your toys and run away" type. You live and learn. I don't know ... as flounces go, I would only rate this a 4.5 but I've always been like the old East German judges; just drop my score off. Peace and comfort, Michael

Rule -> RE: No name calling . . . but racism and mocking dead friends is OK. (9/24/2012 6:28:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle One thing that contributes to this is that there seems to be two different definitions/understandings of what anti-Semitism is. Most people would, I hope, agree that anti-Semitism refers to disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. In the USA there seems to be a genuine belief held by some that either any or excessive criticism of the Israeli State, on any grounds, constitutes anti-Semitism. I know of nowhere else, (and that includes Israel itself) where this definition is accepted. Until this matter is sorted out and a single standard agreed and operating, it seems inevitable that this confusion, and the accompanying rancour will persist. So this seems to me to be as good a time as any to have that discussion and hopefully find some agreement on this contentious issue. I propose to use my definition: anyone who has a circumcised penis, or has a father or grandfather with a circumcised penis, or is part of a population in which circumcision is practiced - is a Jew. Please notice that this definition does not distinguish between dress, holy books nor festivities nor countries, It simply is a convenient concept; we might as easily rename the concept 'Circs' or 'Bwlewaprs', but such names would be foreign to most people.

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