RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates.

RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 4:30:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ~FR~ Before the Progressive Era . . . . Pennsylvania coal miners And, only because of the Progressive Era, kids no longer work in mines? Is that what you are trying to say? 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act signed by FDR.

vincentML -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 7:28:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ~FR~ Before the Progressive Era . . . . Pennsylvania coal miners And, only because of the Progressive Era, kids no longer work in mines? Is that what you are trying to say? 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act signed by FDR. Exactly!!! Furthermore in 1904: The National Child Labor Committee, an organization dedicated to the abolition of all child labor, was formed in 1904. By publishing information on the lives and working conditions of young workers, it helped to mobilize popular support for state-level child labor laws. These laws were often paired with compulsory education laws which were designed to keep children in school and out of the paid labor market until a specified age (usually 12, 14, or 16 years.) ~Wiki It sure as hell didn't come out of the Heritage Foundation.

DesideriScuri -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 7:56:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ~FR~ Before the Progressive Era . . . . Pennsylvania coal miners And, only because of the Progressive Era, kids no longer work in mines? Is that what you are trying to say? 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act signed by FDR. Exactly!!! Furthermore in 1904: The National Child Labor Committee, an organization dedicated to the abolition of all child labor, was formed in 1904. By publishing information on the lives and working conditions of young workers, it helped to mobilize popular support for state-level child labor laws. These laws were often paired with compulsory education laws which were designed to keep children in school and out of the paid labor market until a specified age (usually 12, 14, or 16 years.) ~Wiki It sure as hell didn't come out of the Heritage Foundation. Noooo, really? http://www.heritage.org/ quote: The Heritage Foundation is the nation’s most broadly supported public policy research institute, with nearly 700,000 individual, foundation and corporate donors. Heritage, founded in February 1973, a staff of 275 and an annual expense budget of $82.4 million. Our mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense. So, what you're saying is that without the Progressives, we'd still have children working in mines?

DomYngBlk -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 8:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk How about the converse. Are you saying we will be able to lift all boats, help all children reach their full academic acheivement through lower taxes and less funding of schools? Not going to answer my question, though? And, yes, I do believe we'll be able to lift everyone through lower taxes, and a stronger economic engine. As far as school funding goes, there's enough bullshit schools have to pay for, and enough bullshit teachers are expected to do (by parents), that no amount of money is going to make education solvent. And, I'm also very much against dumping more money after bad money. You, apparently, don't know my stance on public education (k-12 education). That's fine and all, and I may not have ever truly made my points on it either. But, you don't know me. You don't know my stance. I have relatives that are/were teachers. I have relatives that are/were school administrators. I've seen what they have to deal with and what they have to go through. I do not believe teachers are underpaid. I do believe they are overworked. Parents have become less and less parents and more akin to sitters and friends with their kids. Teachers and schools are not only relied upon to provide much in the way of parental responsibilities (ie. food, behavior modification, etc.), but they are expected to provide those things. Do kids learn more and better when they are not going hungry? You're damn right they do. But, is that the responsibility of the parents, or the schools? Parental disengagement has ruined what once was one the best educations in the world. Now, it's in shambles, with suburban districts tending to do better than urban districts (mostly because the parents are more engaged in their kids educations and more supportive of education in general), and most of the suburban districts spend less per pupil (and, I know that has a lot to do with the incredible amount of services urban schools provide that suburban schools tend to not have to spend). You might want to rethink starting a discussion on funding public education with me. All cute right wing talking points there but I wasn't talking about Education. Simply the funding for that education. For, if you lower taxes from the level they are now one will have to raise the boats even higher just to get to this current funding level on that lower tax rate. No? Tax rates in most districts in Ohio haven't risen in many many years. Do you suppose that has had a large affect on the overall health of the school system? Or, are you of the mind that says higher class sizes and elimination of programs are a better way to improve an education system that is falling behind the rest of the world daily.

vincentML -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 8:12:55 PM)
quote: So, what you're saying is that without the Progressives, we'd still have children working in mines? No, I don't see where I said that. But that was the history of it. Are you saying that owners/managers will not exploit labor whenever they can?

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 8:44:52 PM)
quote: That includes using taxation to undo harm done by capitalism There it is. America is a capitalistic country. So, you say one must use taxation to undo the harm done by America. That is to say, Change America from a capitalistic society to a socialistic society, a change attempted by the communist party here in the past and one tried by Soviet Russia and a change our valiant armed forces fought and died to prevent in Korea and Viet Nam and through years of a cold war with The Soviet Union and now attempted by the Left on this Great Country from within and behind their backs while these same American Armed Forces stand guard against this form of socialism on the 37th parallel in Korea still in Germany and on lonely warships on and beneath the seas to stand between Chinese Socialism and the free peoples of the world. All the while, some Americans at home are writing such words as "undo harm done by capitalism" and voting for Politicians who plan to obtain power by changing free citizens of the greatest capitalistic country in the word into dependent and under control wards of a socialistic state that would make Lenin proud. This is what is at stake next month, the survival of America as a free, capitialistic country verses a socialistic society.

MrRodgers -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:08:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel I've been saying what is this report for years--and I'd not ever read it before tonight!! All of us, at most income brackets, pay far too few taxes. This is only true if spending increases are ignored. If we weren't spending as much as we are, we'd not have any deficit/debt issues. That we have the need for the spending increases does fall an awful lot on Bush, but not all of it. And, the spending increases have nothing to do with tax cuts. I'd like to respond to both here. Recall and learn people, this country did fine with no income tax at all for about 150 years. (except during the civil war, quickly eliminated once over) Even Hamilton argued that to achieve not only our political but also economic independence from the crown we could support govt. and armies with a small business tax. ONLY Next thread, the OP's link didn't refer to govt. spending. It only looked at tax rates vis-a-vis economic growth. It makes no reference to any level of any spending. Plus, spending has a direct economic relationship to taxes as it determines whether or not a surplus is realized or additional debt is taken on. What people seem to hold dear to their heart is that economy is supposed to serve society. This report is just yet another arrow in the quiver of proof that society (at least in America) is to serve economy. There has been no evidence for the last 50 years that American business and certainly in the 'corporation' taking advantage of American freedom and largess, does in fact serve society as reflected in the very eager off-shoring of jobs (the Fortune 500 = NO new net jobs created in those 50 years) the off-shoring of capital and that for investors enjoy a 15% cap gains rate (or carried interest) has shown the immorality of our plutocracy. It's almost as if there is no overriding economic theory that sustains society...only profits. Society is told that the more profitable businesses and corporations are and the less taxes on that profit being taken, somehow benefits society when clearly...it does not. It benefits only investors.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:22:24 PM)
You know, at first I wrote "duped into writing" but then realized I was plain wrong. Many who voted for "Change" with Obama knew exactly what he was for, the end of America as a captialistic society, the one the Greatest Generation fought for and died for, the one we grew up in and gave us our great public education of the 50s, 60s, and 70s., the great roads and bridges and great scientific discoveries and great advances in the standard of living, a standard that was greater than any place on this planet. It got that way not on the backs of the poor but on the investiments of the rich and the work of anyone who wanted to make themselves better. That is the essence of captialism, invest capital, provide jobs, purchase a higher standard of living and continue the cycle by saving and investing. There are no entitlements in a capitalistic society, instead there is opportunity and self reliance and the only limit to what you can achieve is up to you and for those who cannot work because they are truely unable to, there is compassion and there is help but there are no entitlements for the lazy and the leaches of American society. None. Because while America rewards those who strive to achieve it does not take from those who achieve and give it to those who choose not to achieve. America does this because a free man or free woman is free to enjoy the fruits of their labor without having to give it to a man or woman who chooses not to work. Life can be hard in America but only if you or your parents choose for it to be hard. My mother was a divorcee. She raised two boys from age 6 on by herself living in a two bedroom duplex and paying for it with two jobs at times. We did not have a lot of clothes but what we had were kept patched and our shoes never had holes and they were never dirty. We always had food even if mom had to buy dry powder milk and mix it with regular milk to make it stretch. We had oat meal in the morning and something hot and good in the evening. We did not have a car for twelve years and walked or took a cab or got rides, that was done alot in those days, friends with cars gave rides to those without. We bought 6 cent a loaf three day old bread and enjoyed it but mom never took food stamps when they were offered because we had enough and one did not take charity if there was another option. We slowly progressed and were able to buy encyclopedias for eventually so we could have them for study at home, mom got into nursing school and got a job at the hosptial and we did very well always and in later years did much better but never thought of ourselves as victims and "poor". The poor did not have powdered milk and as long as you had family and at least some job you could make it and even be very happy. So, if we were on "entitlements" then we likely would have stayed poor and never progressed and mom would have stayed home, sat on the couch watching TV and getting fat on crappy food bought with food stamps at the grocery or buying dollar menu shit from McDonalds and we certainly would not have progressed. Now we were progressive in that we always got better whereas those with an entitlement mentality stayed in one place on the economic scale or even get worse. Life can be hard in America but not because you are poor but because you can work but choose to stay poor.

slvemike4u -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:26:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: That includes using taxation to undo harm done by capitalism There it is. America is a capitalistic country. So, you say one must use taxation to undo the harm done by America. That is to say, Change America from a capitalistic society to a socialistic society, a change attempted by the communist party here in the past and one tried by Soviet Russia and a change our valiant armed forces fought and died to prevent in Korea and Viet Nam and through years of a cold war with The Soviet Union and now attempted by the Left on this Great Country from within and behind their backs while these same American Armed Forces stand guard against this form of socialism on the 37th parallel in Korea still in Germany and on lonely warships on and beneath the seas to stand between Chinese Socialism and the free peoples of the world. All the while, some Americans at home are writing such words as "undo harm done by capitalism" and voting for Politicians who plan to obtain power by changing free citizens of the greatest capitalistic country in the word into dependent and under control wards of a socialistic state that would make Lenin proud. This is what is at stake next month, the survival of America as a free, capitialistic country verses a socialistic society. My god man,I get a headache just from reading your posts .No ,the sentence in question does not,in fact,say "one must undo the harm done by America" not in the least ,not even close. As a matter of fact an un-biased reader would be hard pressed,were he not aware of your hyper-partisanship,to understand the leaps and gyrations one would have to go thru to get where you got. All of your flag waving support the troops(yet lets not pass any bills to support the veterans,eh?)bullshit aside,do you understand ,in the least,what a progressive tax system does ? Do you understand why it is set up to do what it does? Was America a socialist country in the 50's? How about the 60's,70's 80's and 90's ? All of these decades had higher tax rates than we have today....Were we not just as free ? If not ,in fact free-er Step away from the kool aid.stop listening to Rush...and relax,the big bad socialist boogie man has no interest in you.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:29:57 PM)
No country has every taxed themselves into greatness.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:39:41 PM)
quote: No ,the sentence in question does not,in fact,say "one must undo the harm done by America" not in the least ,not even close. Of course it does. America is captialism. Capitialism drives America's economy. If one says "undo the harm caused by captialism" then one is saying "undo the harm done by America". It's just that simple. It does not take fourteen cable new network talking heads to get to the basics. The basics are the America is captialism and to "undo the harm" is to undo America and change it into something not America. If I am hyper-partisan it is for America,and I am proud of it. I will not apologize for America nor the basis of her economy and growth, capitialism.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:44:15 PM)
quote: bullshit aside,do you understand ,in the least,what a progressive tax system does ? bullshit aside, do you understand that "progressive" is a relative term and does not automatically mean "good" or "better"? Tax system are tailored to goals. If it meets that goal then one can say it is "progressive" even if another might not agree with the goal to begin with and therefore does not agree the tax system is "progressive" and instead will define it as "regressive" as in crippling captialism and encreasing entitlements.

FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ~FR~ Before the Progressive Era . . . . Pennsylvania coal miners [image]local://upfiles/897398/860E9BC1806A4D7BBBDC519442AF2043.jpg[/image] Hey, shouldn't they be in school? Oh wait that's right, republican president. And that IS school.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:51:45 PM)
quote: All of your flag waving support the troops(yet lets not pass any bills to support the veterans,eh?) I am a veteran. I did not know I needed anything more. Yes, I'm sure I don't need anything more. How about you, are you a veteran and if so, what did you need that somehow I did not seem to need?

MrRodgers -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 9:55:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie I read here that the question is "what to do with other people's money'. The growth of GDP in the 50's is easily attributable to post WW-II reconstruction of Europe and to a lesser degree Japan, etc. It's quite natural and realistic to see that such diminished as Europe took up its own reins. However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution. Seeing as how There is not conclusive evidence, however, to substantiate a clear relationship between the 65-year steady reduction in the top tax rates and economic growth and that the reduction in the top tax rates have had little association with saving, investment, or productivity growth, it sure do come through loud and clear - PROGRESSIVE / LIBERAL ENVY! So, over the past 60 years or so Progressivism has taken from one and given to another. There's a dependency class now. Good job.[8\|] A very partisan attempt to shift the argument from a technical analysis to class warfare. Two things...Buffet says his class is winning and they are plus YES..... .....YES I do envy those who keep 85% of their millions (80% of which is enjoyed by the top 5%) while I can only keep 65% of my good salary. I also envy that they have more 'free speech' [sic] in the bank. Yes, in America, there has been a steady transfer of wealth for over 40 years...from labor to capital as reflected by the numbers. It isn't left or right or progressive or liberal...it is a fact.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 10:08:39 PM)
Truth be known, these are child coal miners and the sweat shop children workers on the early 20th century, this is when this photo was taken, and one might think they were tragically used and abused apparently. But let's look again. They are there not to buy a soda after school, they are there because the economy was so bad that they had to work so their families would not starve, it's not like somebody rounded them up and worked them. Life was tougher back then and we are in the throws of a full fledged depression and 50 percent of all able bodied workers were out of work. So, if you lived where you could get a job then you worked to keep from starving and there was no money for entitlement programs. As things got better and eventually did, then jobs became more plentiful and so then children stopped working like this and people could even orgainize and ask for better conditions and wages. Truth be known, the "progressive" meant many different things and could be used as a label for either party depending on the period in history. For example, did you know that the Democrates were hardest on Civil Rights in the 60s and the GOP led the way in that "progressive" movement. Additionally, although FDR was a democrate and signed into law many labor bills, it was not a one sided situation where the Dems fought the evil GOP to get it done. So, although your picture out of history was interesting it does not support the caption you put on it. These kids were dealing with a depression and hard conditions that no party could wave a magic wand and do away with and certainly it is not because of some evil GOP.

MrRodgers -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 10:11:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: No ,the sentence in question does not,in fact,say "one must undo the harm done by America" not in the least ,not even close. Of course it does. America is captialism. Capitialism drives America's economy. If one says "undo the harm caused by captialism" then one is saying "undo the harm done by America". It's just that simple. It does not take fourteen cable new network talking heads to get to the basics. The basics are the America is captialism and to "undo the harm" is to undo America and change it into something not America. If I am hyper-partisan it is for America,and I am proud of it. I will not apologize for America nor the basis of her economy and growth, capitialism. I don't see it that way at all. What has been successful is free enterprise in a free market. I define 'capitalism' as nothing more than turning paper into money. (wall street turning their paper into our money) I submit that one would be hard pressed to define or redefine economy in other terms. In fact capitalism is rather undefined except in terms of a free enterprise operating in a free market.

MrRodgers -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 10:30:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas No country has every taxed themselves into greatness. No country has ever been an entirely 'socialist' country where we do not have the luxury of redefining the word as some constantly try to do here. No country has survived or even attempted to organize a socialist country where all of the means of production is owned by the govt. Socialism as defined theoretically could be operated in a free country but greed, power-mongering and corruption would soon take over. Sound familiar ? WWII Germany used the nationalist 'socialist' movement to put the Nazis in power. They then quickly stole everything Jewish, ruined their peace-time economy and turned it into capitalist fascism...the same as Italy. From the point of AH taking over, Germany became a full time war economy. Stalinist/Leninist economic theory was communism which is a complete central (govt.) control and ownership of production but was also required fascism to organize it. They and no other country has ever even tried socialism in a democracy.

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 10:31:01 PM)
quote: Was America a socialist country in the 50's? How about the 60's,70's 80's and 90's ? All of these decades had higher tax rates than we have today....Were we not just as free ? America was far from a socialist country in the 50's, or the 50, 70, 80 and 90s. The 90s did not have higher effective tax rates. However, the 50s while thought of as the "golden years" are thought of that not because everyone had a job and everyone had a five flat sceen HD TVs, two cars and a house but because the man had the job and the woman stayed at home and the family was the focus of life and one had a car and some had TVs and there were no entitlements like we have today. We were very free. You see, it is not the tax rate, it is what you do with it that makes one un-free or free. The one paying the high tax is not un-free it is the person getting the money for free that is inslaved to that entitlement. As far as tax rate vs. economy, the 50s were good but if you were to compare one black and white TV and no house and a rental instead and one car maybe and one breadwinner working then you would then quickly some to realize the economy was not as great as say the 90 and early 2000s, when we had a low tax rate. What can I say, the "devil is in the details", right?

Arturas -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 10:45:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas No country has every taxed themselves into greatness. No country has ever been an entirely 'socialist' country where we do not have the luxury of redefining the word as some constantly try to do here. No country has survived or even attempted to organize a socialist country where all of the means of production is owned by the govt. Socialism as defined theoretically could be operated in a free country but greed, power-mongering and corruption would soon take over. Sound familiar ? WWII Germany used the nationalist 'socialist' movement to put the Nazis in power. They then quickly stole everything Jewish, ruined their peace-time economy and turned it into capitalist fascism...the same as Italy. From the point of AH taking over, Germany became a full time war economy. Stalinist/Leninist economic theory was communism which is a complete central (govt.) control and ownership of production but was also required fascism to organize it. They and no other country has ever even tried socialism in a democracy. Socialism and Capitialism are opposing economic systems. Communisim and Democracy is a form of governemnt. Socialism was the economic system in Communist Russia and was in China also and to some extent still is. Russia fell not due to American efforts but to the failure of what was effectively a large scale experiment in socialism or "wealth re-distribution". Pure socialism might work if it was not prone to corruption and cronyism that is unchecked by real world controls as are in place in a capitalistic state in which if you cannot achieve then you cannot have no matter who you know, for the most part, no system is perfect but socialism is less perfect because you cannot achieve on your own you must rely on the state and so Obama on his quest for changing America stated "you did not build it" when discussing small businesses because he is a socialist and with him the state is the origin of everything.

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