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ORIGINAL: Arturas

Here is the basic problem. It's not rocket science. Thinking citizens already know it and I expect it to happen sooner than later.

The problem is one our Founding Fathers recognized when they formed this Union.
The problem occurs when a majority of the electoriate, those that vote, do not pay taxes, and we are approaching that point if not already there. Human beings being who they are, those who pay no taxes will vote to obtain more from those who do by force of majority vote. When this country was formed there was no entitlement of voting for all. Only those with a stake in the country could vote, those who paid taxes could vote. This is the only fix, take the vote away from those who do not pay into America; You pay taxes you vote and therefore decide how those taxes are used. You don't pay taxes then nobody cares what you think about how those taxes you did not pay into are used. This is how the country was founded and it must go back to that founding principle or perish.

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

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p.s. unlike you I feel know need to shout from the mountain tops my appreciation of this country,patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel and all that.
Neither do I feel the need to make any claim of service ,this is the internet,one can claim most anything,I can claim to walk around wrapped in a flag 24/7...it means less than nothing.
As do your claims

I don't understand what you mean by "patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel". I suppose I can flip that around and get the meaning through a little logic: I am a patriot therefore I am a scoundrel. Or, a patriot is a scoundrel and since scoundrels are "bad" then since I am a patriot then I am "bad".

I'm not sure why you would even suggest I am just claiming to be a veteran? Is it because you must deflect my response only by saying I am just claiming to be a veteran? I am sure I cannot debate with one who eventually must respond only with "you are a liar and a scoundrel".

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  Arturas:
The problem is one our Founding Fathers recognized when they formed this Union.
The problem occurs when a majority of the electoriate, those that vote, do not pay taxes, and we are approaching that point if not already there.

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Socialist programs in the US
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Pell Grants
Public Schools
Federal funding of research

None of these define America as a socialist country. They define America as a capitalistic society with paid into programs and a single program that compassionately provides basic medical needs for the poor. The only entitlement programs that exist are the Public Schools and the Common Defense (Armed Forces) and medicaid, and you must be very poor to use it or disabled. The first two is why the Government exists and the third is the safety net for the down and out. So, only one compassionate program and two that define why we have a Government, education and defense and the others you are not entitled to just by breathing and being an American citizen.

This weakens you argument a great deal for without the need for common defense we would not have even created the U.S. Government. Later Public education was added and then finally medicaid because we are a compassionate society but by no means does being compassionate mean we are socialistic.

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

hate to break it to you but Social Security is not a gimmie either, unless you paid into it you don't get it and the benefit is not the same for all but is based on what you paid into it, along with your employer also based on your wage amounts.

Hope that did not destroy your retirement plan.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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So, the history of it is there, but that only provides correlation, and not necessarily causation. I believe we would have gotten there without the Progressive Era, and that repealing the history of the Progressives won't mean we go back to the way everything was prior to them.

Ummm. . . how do you repeal the history of an era without wiping away the humane gains of that era? The era is defined by those advances. We won't go back? In fact there are children used today in the farmland to harvest crops. Additionally, have you not noticed the attempt to rollback the contracts and working conditions of public employees? I believe you have.

You undo all the programs, policies, and laws put in place. Do you truly believe that if we got rid of Unions, that we'd have the same conditions that served as the motivation for creating the Unions in the first place? I'd like to think that, as a country, we've grown and matured past that. Plus, in the information age, those actions can lead to greater and greater impact on the bottom line of a company once they start abusing employees. Hell, Chik-Fil-A noticed an impact after their CEO came out against gay marriage, even though there weren't lots of lawsuits and claims that there was any discrimination against homosexuals. There wasn't any employee abuse, and look what happened there.

It's more and more difficult to get away with bullshit these days, and I, for one, like that.

Now, what are the contract stipulations and working conditions for public employees that employers are attempting to roll back?

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
The only entitlement programs that exist are the Public Schools and the Common Defense (Armed Forces) ... The first two is why the Government exists and the third is the safety net for the down and out.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

hate to break it to you but Social Security is not a gimmie either, unless you paid into it you don't get it and the benefit is not the same for all but is based on what you paid into it, along with your employer also based on your wage amounts.

Hope that did not destroy your retirement plan.

Actually, as cons love to point out, Soical Security does not simply hold and invest your taxes to provide a pension. While the amount paid is related to the amounts you've paid it is not based on investment returns or anything of the like. It is a socialist transfer of wealth.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Socialist programs in the US
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Pell Grants
Public Schools
Federal funding of research

None of these define America as a socialist country. They define America as a capitalistic society with paid into programs and a single program that compassionately provides basic medical needs for the poor. The only entitlement programs that exist are the Public Schools and the Common Defense (Armed Forces) and medicaid, and you must be very poor to use it or disabled. The first two is why the Government exists and the third is the safety net for the down and out. So, only one compassionate program and two that define why we have a Government, education and defense and the others you are not entitled to just by breathing and being an American citizen.

This weakens you argument a great deal for without the need for common defense we would not have even created the U.S. Government. Later Public education was added and then finally medicaid because we are a compassionate society but by no means does being compassionate mean we are socialistic.

Yes, they do.

They all represent, to one degree or another, government insertion into the economy. The social safety net in all its guises is obviously socialist and obviously not capitalist. Free public education is obviously socialist in that it is a government created competition for private schools.

Every program meant to redistribute wealth, not just doing so as a side effect, is by definition socialist. Every regulation of business by government puts government more in charge of the means of production which is by definition socialist.

You seem to have made the mistake of equating socialism with communism.

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Hardly. The Public School System is imported Prussian

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

 

quote:

  Arturas:
The problem is one our Founding Fathers recognized when they formed this Union.
The problem occurs when a majority of the electoriate, those that vote, do not pay taxes, and we are approaching that point if not already there.

This is beyond an epic fail, in fact it pales in epic failure.  It is leviathon in epic failure, it is the penultimate as well as the ultimate in epic failure.

In the establishment of this country no taxes were contemplated being paid by other than rich people as an ante into the market. (only needed great tax monies to raise armies, and that happened in 1812 and the indian wars and so on, whiskey rebellion) all other forms of revenue were to be tarriffs and customs.

The business man and the rich man, the landed aristocrats; not the clerk, not the farmer, not the blacksmith. 

 

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Socialist programs in the US
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Pell Grants
Public Schools
Federal funding of research

None of these define America as a socialist country. They define America as a capitalistic society with paid into programs and a single program that compassionately provides basic medical needs for the poor. The only entitlement programs that exist are the Public Schools and the Common Defense (Armed Forces) and medicaid, and you must be very poor to use it or disabled. The first two is why the Government exists and the third is the safety net for the down and out. So, only one compassionate program and two that define why we have a Government, education and defense and the others you are not entitled to just by breathing and being an American citizen.

This weakens you argument a great deal for without the need for common defense we would not have even created the U.S. Government. Later Public education was added and then finally medicaid because we are a compassionate society but by no means does being compassionate mean we are socialistic.

Yes, they do.

They all represent, to one degree or another, government insertion into the economy. The social safety net in all its guises is obviously socialist and obviously not capitalist. Free public education is obviously socialist in that it is a government created competition for private schools.

Every program meant to redistribute wealth, not just doing so as a side effect, is by definition socialist. Every regulation of business by government puts government more in charge of the means of production which is by definition socialist.

You seem to have made the mistake of equating socialism with communism.

No. Public Education is an investment in the country. It yields dividends in the form of an educated citizenry better able to function in a capitilistic society.

The Pell Grant is the same concept, an investment rather than entitlement.

Federal funding of research, same thing, an investment by a capitalistic society.

Social Security I have addressed.


These programs do not distribute weath but invest it and a return is expected and measured. Wealth distribution is not invested but intead given and no return is expected and none is measured and if it is then failure is addressed by distributing more money.

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

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p.s. unlike you I feel know need to shout from the mountain tops my appreciation of this country,patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel and all that.
Neither do I feel the need to make any claim of service ,this is the internet,one can claim most anything,I can claim to walk around wrapped in a flag 24/7...it means less than nothing.
As do your claims

I don't understand what you mean by "patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel". I suppose I can flip that around and get the meaning through a little logic: I am a patriot therefore I am a scoundrel. Or, a patriot is a scoundrel and since scoundrels are "bad" then since I am a patriot then I am "bad".

I'm not sure why you would even suggest I am just claiming to be a veteran? Is it because you must deflect my response only by saying I am just claiming to be a veteran? I am sure I cannot debate with one who eventually must respond only with "you are a liar and a scoundrel".

Wow,how you are having issues comprehending my meaning is beyond me....I have been grade school level clear,but I will repeat myself :This is the internet,you say you are a vet,fine...but I take everything with a grain of salt,particularly so in this medium .
If you choose to feel all butt hurt insulted over that pov....tough shit.
As for "patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel"....look it up,it is an old adage,and no it does not mean that every patriot is a scoundrel,not in the least.
It does give one pause about scoundrels who proclaim their nefarious stances are motivated by patriotism,for example:Some un-named asshole,proclaiming his love of country ,and desire that she prosper could come along and suggest that half the population should have their franchise abridged...all the while this asshole could be citing the founding fathers,could be laying claim to military service,but despite all that bluster,despite all that protestation of patriotism,despite claiming military service this idiot wants to turn half of his fellow citizens into some sort of "less than" class of citizen.
That to me is not patriotism...that is despotism,that is in short a scoundrel.
Have a nice day.

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ORIGINAL: Arturas
I realize the founding father's idea of not allowing those who do not pay taxes to have a say in how those taxes are used at first blush sounds terrible but let's take your money for example, do you want me to decide how you spend your money when I made not contribution but instead just showed up with Obama at your front door and asked for money and then left and went back to my public house and turned on the TV while you went on to work?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Arturas

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Socialist programs in the US
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Pell Grants
Public Schools
Federal funding of research

None of these define America as a socialist country. They define America as a capitalistic society with paid into programs and a single program that compassionately provides basic medical needs for the poor. The only entitlement programs that exist are the Public Schools and the Common Defense (Armed Forces) and medicaid, and you must be very poor to use it or disabled. The first two is why the Government exists and the third is the safety net for the down and out. So, only one compassionate program and two that define why we have a Government, education and defense and the others you are not entitled to just by breathing and being an American citizen.

This weakens you argument a great deal for without the need for common defense we would not have even created the U.S. Government. Later Public education was added and then finally medicaid because we are a compassionate society but by no means does being compassionate mean we are socialistic.

Yes, they do.

They all represent, to one degree or another, government insertion into the economy. The social safety net in all its guises is obviously socialist and obviously not capitalist. Free public education is obviously socialist in that it is a government created competition for private schools.

Every program meant to redistribute wealth, not just doing so as a side effect, is by definition socialist. Every regulation of business by government puts government more in charge of the means of production which is by definition socialist.

You seem to have made the mistake of equating socialism with communism.

No. Public Education is an investment in the country. It yields dividends in the form of an educated citizenry better able to function in a capitilistic society.

The Pell Grant is the same concept, an investment rather than entitlement.

Federal funding of research, same thing, an investment by a capitalistic society.

Social Security I have addressed.


These programs do not distribute weath but invest it and a return is expected and measured. Wealth distribution is not invested but intead given and no return is expected and none is measured and if it is then failure is addressed by distributing more money.

You have not addressed anything. You simply hand waved away facts inconvenient to your line of BS.

All the programs under discussion were created by progressive politicians. All were and are considered socialist by honest people on both sides of the issues. You don't get to create your own definitions to suit your arguments.

The social safety net was not created due to capitalism but by socialists based on socialist philsophy. Prior to the progressive era public education was not considered vital and was not mandatory. It was socialists who insisted that every child should receive an education. Go upthread and see the picture of 10 year cold miners for confirmation that your claims about public ed are wrong.

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Uh, nope didnt go googling whatsoever, no: tarriffs can be paid on exports and imports, and not goods produced in country. And ultimately the tarriff would then be paid by the final owner, would it not?