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RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 8:03:28 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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quote:

   Arturas:
The problem is one our Founding Fathers recognized when they formed this Union.
The problem occurs when a majority of the electoriate, those that vote, do not pay taxes, and we are approaching that point if not already there.


This is beyond an epic fail, in fact it pales in epic failure.  It is leviathon in epic failure, it is the penultimate as well as the ultimate in epic failure.
In the establishment of this country no taxes were contemplated being paid by other than rich people as an ante into the market. (only needed great tax monies to raise armies, and that happened in 1812 and the indian wars and so on, whiskey rebellion) all other forms of revenue were to be tarriffs and customs.
The business man and the rich man, the landed aristocrats; not the clerk, not the farmer, not the blacksmith. 

quote:

Arturas
Every American History student knows this: only land owners and business owners were taxed via tarriffs at the state and national level and import duties when their business imported goods and so they were the only ones who could decide what was done with the money by voting. What, you think the clerk did? I sure the founding fathers would laugh and say if you gave the clerks and dockworkers the vote what do you think they would do, well it would be "wealth re-distribution" or legal robbery.
So, I'm afraid "Epic Fail" does not apply to my post.


quote:

Arturas
Then you should have gone googling. Tarriffs were paid on interstate commerce when using roads built by public funds, a common occurence back then. Property taxes mainly paid the bills in colonial times and again after the nation was founded in 1776. States collected most of the taxes from landowners. Landowners were taxed and landowners voted. Just what I said.


Well, geeze where to start other than....... no, you didn't lets look at the original post I responded to.

Now, you are saying it was always that landowners and businessmen, the wealthy (which would be a less than 47% of America) shouldered the bulk of any tax, and were specially and separately taxed.

Then, tarriff; no matter how vermiformously you dissemble, will not do the work you assign to it, since it is part of the English language and has a separate and definite meaning.

You probably dont know that if you go to the east coast, you will find that alot of thoroughfares are named Kings street or Kings way or high street (high king you see) or even Highway (get the joke?)

These were taxed via tolls by England (which we were part of, you see) and the right of passage for commercial vehicles was higher than say a lone rider not engaged in commerce (who didn't pay any tax) on his way to go tie up and fuck the shit out of the slut in the next town.

But therein is another failure, the Crown's system hardly qualifies as having been the design of the founding fathers does it?

Washington wore a red coat, and had he been promoted to a Major General as he petitioned in the English Army, from his rank as Colonel, our world would be very different. 

And that's enough for now, this nonsense you are prattling here is cluttering up the discourse.




_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 11:50:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Well. Time to summarize with facts.

1) The founding fathers did not let all Americans vote. They let only landowners because they were the taxpayers.

NO. The Founders did not do that. I'm still waiting for you to present any evidence of the Founders wanting the franchise limited in that way.


1790 Only white male adult property-owners have the right to vote.

The evidence to your question is implicit in the original voting scheme. The founders could have made it everyone.

BUT THEY DIDN'T!

I await your reply.



Close but no cigar.

I do not deny that the various states limited the franchise to male property owners.

But the claim is that the Founders wanted things that way. Which I, having read most everything written by the major Founders, have never seen.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 12:10:44 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Well. Time to summarize with facts.

1) The founding fathers did not let all Americans vote. They let only landowners because they were the taxpayers.

NO. The Founders did not do that. I'm still waiting for you to present any evidence of the Founders wanting the franchise limited in that way.


1790 Only white male adult property-owners have the right to vote.

The evidence to your question is implicit in the original voting scheme. The founders could have made it everyone.

BUT THEY DIDN'T!

I await your reply.



Close but no cigar.

I do not deny that the various states limited the franchise to male property owners.

But the claim is that the Founders wanted things that way. Which I, having read most everything written by the major Founders, have never seen.



Don't have to have some other. Simple fact is that what they wrought lasted 20 years till it was changed. For some reason you seem to request more than what is right before your eyes. If it wasn't what they wanted then why the fuck did they do it?

Ultimately it's irrelevant that it was so simply because it is now not so. But the simple fact is that it was.

So your statement NO. The Founders did not do that is incorrect. The problem I have with you and people like you is that even when its glaring right in front of your eyes you still have to try and garner weasel room. And that DomKen is intellectually dishonest.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 12:40:06 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, at least 14 of that was ratifying the constitution, (which was not the law of the land until spring of 1789) and a few more years what? 4 or so off the top of my head to get the bill of rights ratified. so we are into the 1790 time frame right quick, hah?

Anyway, while all this goes on, it was a document of backroom deals, compromise and fighting and pure disgust, and in that miasma, there turned out to be a few things they didnt get quite right and they also found some shit that looked goddamn pretty on paper but didnt work for shit in reality, hah?  

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 1:09:09 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, at least 14 of that was ratifying the constitution, (which was not the law of the land until spring of 1789) and a few more years what? 4 or so off the top of my head to get the bill of rights ratified. so we are into the 1790 time frame right quick, hah?

Anyway, while all this goes on, it was a document of backroom deals, compromise and fighting and pure disgust, and in that miasma, there turned out to be a few things they didnt get quite right and they also found some shit that looked goddamn pretty on paper but didnt work for shit in reality, hah?  



You make my point quite readily. You just gotta carve out some wiggle room.

Now as to your Yeah, at least 14 of that was ratifying the constitution..., the first instance of voter change was in 1810, well after ratification which even you admit was in 1789. Your math-fu is weak.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 9/26/2012 1:12:40 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 1:42:10 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Don't know what your point is, but its a senseless one, the first change to the constitution was the fucking bill of rights, sport,  and you can quote me.

Your constitutional law is a little weak.   Amendments aren't just for dirt anymore........



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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 1:48:15 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Don't know what your point is, but its a senseless one, the first change to the constitution was the fucking bill of rights, sport,  and you can quote me.

Your constitutional law is a little weak.   Amendments aren't just for dirt anymore........





Keep digging yourself deeper. It's quite funny. Pedantic even. Keep carving out your wiggle room. So progressive of you.

edit: Ya know, since you wish to dig so mighty, just which of the Bill of Rights would you be referring to that changed voting, being the topic of our discussion?

Here, let me help you -



Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 9/26/2012 1:58:56 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:16:32 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
So your statement NO. The Founders did not do that is incorrect. The problem I have with you and people like you is that even when its glaring right in front of your eyes you still have to try and garner weasel room. And that DomKen is intellectually dishonest.

Actually it is correct. The laws in question predate the Fopunders time. It was a carry over of english practice.

The claim remains that the Founders wantd it like that and I cannot find any such statement and it was not enshrined in the Constitution which specifically leaves details of the franchise to each state.

I find the idea that Thomas Paine in particular would have supported limiting the Franchise to land owners ridiculous beyond measure since the only property he ever bought was in 1783 at the age of 46. I also note that he was elected to the french National Convention despite the fact that he owned no land in France.

After doing some digging it appears not every state in 1789 limited the vote to land owners. 10 did. the other 3, Georgia, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania, limited the vote to men who had paid taxes in the last year.

Franklin had this to say on the matter
quote:


Today a man owns a jackass worth fifty dollars and he is entitled to vote; but before the next election, the jackass dies. The man in the meantime has become more experienced, his knowledge of the principles of government, and his acquaintance with mankind, are more extensive, and he is therefore better qualified to make a proper selection of rulers-but the jackass is dead and the man cannot vote. Now gentlemen, pray inform me, in whom is the right of suffrage? In the man or the jackass?

The Casket, or Flowers of Literature, Wit and Sentiment

In 1791 Vermont entered the union and had no such restriction. In 1792 Kentucky joined and likewise did not limit the vote to land owners. New Hampshire repealed its requirement that voters be taxpayers that same year.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 9/26/2012 2:23:50 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:21:46 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Gotta love how they move the goal posts when it suits their purposes... even when they are wrong.

And when are they right ?
That question might appear inflammatory to some,but I assure you itis no more so than the suggestion that half of us should lose our right to vote !!!!!!!!!

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:24:43 PM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually it is correct. The laws in question predate the Fopunders time. It was a carry over of english practice.



Irrelevant other than discussion of interest. The simple fact is that the voting laws were not changed till 1810. Much of English Common Law was incorporated but that too is irrelevant.

Jokingly, this is what you suggest -

"Your letter regarding title in Case No. 189156 has been received. I note that you wish to have title extended further than the 194 years covered by the present application. I was unaware that any educated person in this area, would not know that Louisiana was purchased, by the U.S., from France in 1803, the year of origin identified in our application.

For the edification of uninformed FHA bureaucrats, the title to the land prior to U.S. ownership was obtained from France, which had acquired it by Right of Conquest from Spain. The land came into the possession of Spain by Right of Discovery made in the year 1492 by a sea captain named Christopher Columbus, who had been granted the privilege of seeking a new route to India by the Spanish monarch, Isabella. The good queen, Isabella secured the blessing of the Pope. The Pope is the emissary of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God, creator of the world, including, one presumes, Louisiana. God, therefore, would be the owner of origin and His origins date back to before the beginning of time, the world as we know it and the FHA. I hope you find God's original claim to be satisfactory.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:26:30 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually it is correct. The laws in question predate the Fopunders time. It was a carry over of english practice.



Irrelevant other than discussion of interest. The simple fact is that the voting laws were not changed till 1810.

Wrong. You must have missed my additions to the previous post.

What you think the rest has to do with anything is beyond me.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:35:35 PM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Where the fuck, or even in the javelly fuck, or even in the glimmer of a fuck, or even in a peripheral fuck, or even in a rotund fuck, did you get the idea that I am speaking of voting rights on a fucking tax thread?


BECAUSE you responded to ME! (see your post @ 9/26/2012 12:40:06 PM) and my discussion with DomKen. And I don't see no FR either.

You were either very sloppy or you're



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:44:45 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Well. Time to summarize with facts.

1) The founding fathers did not let all Americans vote. They let only landowners because they were the taxpayers.

NO. The Founders did not do that. I'm still waiting for you to present any evidence of the Founders wanting the franchise limited in that way.


1790 Only white male adult property-owners have the right to vote.

The evidence to your question is implicit in the original voting scheme. The founders could have made it everyone.

BUT THEY DIDN'T!

I await your reply.



Close but no cigar.

I do not deny that the various states limited the franchise to male property owners.

But the claim is that the Founders wanted things that way. Which I, having read most everything written by the major Founders, have never seen.



Don't have to have some other. Simple fact is that what they wrought lasted 20 years till it was changed. For some reason you seem to request more than what is right before your eyes. If it wasn't what they wanted then why the fuck did they do it?

Ultimately it's irrelevant that it was so simply because it is now not so. But the simple fact is that it was.

So your statement NO. The Founders did not do that is incorrect. The problem I have with you and people like you is that even when its glaring right in front of your eyes you still have to try and garner weasel room. And that DomKen is intellectually dishonest.



quote:


Where the fuck, or even in the javelly fuck, or even in the glimmer of a fuck, or even in a peripheral fuck, or even in a rotund fuck, did you get the idea that I am speaking of voting rights on a fucking tax thread?

Quote that bit of canoodling for me. But feel free to quote me from this thread.

You can laugh like Woody Woodpecker, and slobber like Cujo, but I ain't digging no hole about voting. Maybe you should wake the fuck up. I have talked about taxes and only taxes on this thread, and it has been in reference to Arturas' misinformed misconceptions for the most part.

You seem to be digging a hole with the first change in 1801 asswipe, when the change which was the 10 amendments known as the bill of rights was contemplated and part of the compromise for ratification even before the ratification of the constitution.

You havent any room to laugh AND piss your pants, one of them is out of round with the conversation, or both.

I wouldn't disparage me, cuz I will make you look like a clown, and I wouldn't disparage me when you don't have a fucking clue what you are on about cuz I will make you look like a fuckin cretin, and it will take you 3 weeks and the OED to figure out what I did to you.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile Report | Post #: 130



Sooooo...since it was the way this country was founded then it appears to have some precedent and it also appears to be the only way out of this mess where people who are untaxed vote into office politicians who give them control over tax money.

If you have another way of stopping the untaxed (those who do not pay taxes) from controlling the tax rates and what the tax money is spent on, because after all when you vote you are voting in essense on what is done with the tax money, then I would like to hear it.

And, if any of the left (or right) still must carry their point with name calling, like "asswipe", then we will need to call in the mods because such behavior is unacceptable if I am to remain in this forum.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 9/26/2012 2:47:28 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:47:05 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Where the fuck, or even in the javelly fuck, or even in the glimmer of a fuck, or even in a peripheral fuck, or even in a rotund fuck, did you get the idea that I am speaking of voting rights on a fucking tax thread?


BECAUSE you responded to ME! (see your post @ 9/26/2012 12:40:06 PM) and my discussion with DomKen. And I don't see no FR either.

You were either very sloppy or you're




quote:


Don't have to have some other. Simple fact is that what they wrought lasted 20 years till it was changed. For some reason you seem to request more than what is right before your eyes. If it wasn't what they wanted then why the fuck did they do it?


I was responding to this little bit of untutored crap, since you had some link to something in 1790 happened.

Well that is a year, not 20 since the document created in 1776 did not become the law of the land until 1789.

So, any sort of this happened later and that happened way later, is pure buncombe, and further that your 20 year thing was intended to be percieved as a long time between this and that happening, and I pointed out that most of the same guys who hammered out this intractable document were in our government and legislated refinements and out and out changes to it.

Nowhere was any of this in any way concerned with who could vote or what the intent was, I have spoken at lenght about that.

You are the only one pwned in this group of clowns.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 2:55:41 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
Sooooo...since it was the way this country was founded then it appears to have some precedent and it also appears to be the only way out of this mess where people who are untaxed vote into office politicians who give them control over tax money.

If you have another way of stopping the untaxed (those who do not pay taxes) from controlling the tax rates and what the tax money is spent on, because after all when you vote you are voting in essense on what is done with the tax money, then I would like to hear it.



That's the crux. People found they could vote themselves money.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 3:02:50 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Well that is a year, not 20 since the document created in 1776 did not become the law of the land until 1789.


That 1776 document was the Declaration of Independence and it never became the law of the land in 1789.

As Arturas posted, If you have another way of stopping the untaxed (those who do not pay taxes) from controlling the tax rates and what the tax money is spent on, because after all when you vote you are voting in essense on what is done with the tax money, then I would like to hear it.

why don't we get back to something meaningful.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 3:09:37 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No, that is not the crux, it is simpletonian asswipe.

The house was given the power to tax and spend.   That has been perverted.  Nowhere was it contemplated that  corporations were people, nowhere was it contemplated that lifer government politicos would build machines of their robbery, nor would it contemplate that the 'redress of grievances' would be an industry that would be called lobbyists, and that when people left the government they wouldnt be helping to pervert those goals.

Yeah, utopian and agrarian I know, but times change and locks are made to keep the honest people honest, but criminals are always gonna pick them locks.  And capitalism and its trappings were never concieved to be a criminal enterprise.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 4:22:22 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No, that is not the crux, it is simpletonian asswipe.

The house was given the power to tax and spend.   That has been perverted.  Nowhere was it contemplated that  corporations were people, nowhere was it contemplated that lifer government politicos would build machines of their robbery, nor would it contemplate that the 'redress of grievances' would be an industry that would be called lobbyists, and that when people left the government they wouldnt be helping to pervert those goals.

Yeah, utopian and agrarian I know, but times change and locks are made to keep the honest people honest, but criminals are always gonna pick them locks.  And capitalism and its trappings were never concieved to be a criminal enterprise.



Ok. cool.

First. And capitalism and its trappings were never concieved to be a criminal enterprise.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and righteous people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other." - John Adam

So what the fuck happened? How did the criminal class find its way into government?

Yes, the House was given the power to tax and spend. But just what is the house but people elected to that office? And whom elects them?

Obliquely stating - My problem is that when the tenants are given the vote as to their tenancy along with the landlord, chaos ensues. The power of the tenant is in his tenancy itself, not his ability to control the landlord directly.

Thus I agree, That has been perverted.

Nowhere was it contemplated that corporations were people (legislative;judiciary), nowhere was it contemplated that lifer government politicos would build machines of their robbery, nor would it contemplate that the 'redress of grievances' would be an industry that would be called lobbyists(legislative), and that when people left the government they wouldnt be helping to pervert those goals.

All of that can be traced to government elected, appointed, etc.

Ultimately it falls on the voter.

So, just whom is voting? Obviously not a moral and righteous people. Such would not allow the likes of what has occupied government to have entered in the first place.

It's happened. Split milk. But for yucks, how did it happen? Does it not lend itself to Franklin's statement that every so often, say every twenty years or so, some blood need be shed?

But if one understands what it takes for the scoundrel to enter political office, it's hardly asswipe. It's the voters. Everything else is secondary; education, media, bribery, etc.

It all falls on the voter.


How can the farmer blame the fox for the chicken coop when he let the fox in himself?


So ultimately what first must be determined is whom should vote and why. The criminal class in government shall not correct itself. One way or another, they must be removed. Either by the vote or by other means.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 9/26/2012 4:51:59 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 4:31:16 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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< Message edited by Yachtie -- 9/26/2012 4:33:16 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. - 9/26/2012 4:57:09 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
Sooooo...since it was the way this country was founded then it appears to have some precedent and it also appears to be the only way out of this mess where people who are untaxed vote into office politicians who give them control over tax money.

This has already been debunked why do you continue to claim otherwise?

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 140
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