FYI : Real data about tax rates. (Full Version)

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FrostedFlake -> FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/22/2012 9:21:56 PM)

Some folks like to argue. Some of them like to use personality to make thier point. Those folks will probably not be able to read all of this Congressional Research Service report, titled :

Taxes and the Economy: An Economic Analysis of the Top Tax Rates Since 1945

And why should they? Personality debate tactics not only do not rely on actual data, they are hindered by it. And, seeing as the object is not to arrive at a reasonable compromise but rather to batter through all opposition to achieve the ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE (influance, power, money, you know, a substitute for sex), someone else will probably have to read it for them and bluntly point it out to them. So, in the interest of hearing somewhat less about how the rich are too poor to pay the same taxes the poor pay, I provide to any interested bystander this product of the independant research arm of the United States Congress.

'Cause I'm like that.

Here you go.

quote:

Summary :
(SNIP)
This report attempts to clarify whether or not there is an association between the tax rates of the highest income taxpayers and economic growth. Data is analyzed to illustrate the association between the tax rates of the highest income taxpayers and measures of economic growth.
(Another SNIP)
Throughout the late-1940s and 1950s, the top marginal tax rate was typically above 90%; today it is 35%. Additionally, the top capital gains tax rate was 25% in the 1950s and 1960s, 35% in the 1970s; today it is 15%. The real GDP growth rate averaged 4.2% and real per capita GDP increased annually by 2.4% in the 1950s. In the 2000s, the average real GDP growth rate was 1.7% and real per capita GDP increased annually by less than 1%. There is not conclusive evidence, however, to substantiate a clear relationship between the 65-year steady reduction in the top tax rates and economic growth. Analysis of such data suggests the reduction in the top tax rates have had little association with saving, investment, or productivity growth. However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution.
(UnSNIP)


I don't really expect a discussion to arise on this thread. I can't think what the discussion might be about. There is certainly nothing to debate in the report. There is only data to be absorbed, and then used. Just as Global Warming has passed the point of being debatable, the argument about whether the wealthy owe the rest of us anything has reached it's moral conclusion.

However, if two want to Tango, the floor is open. There is, I suppose, the small matter of what we now do about what we now know to be so.



erieangel -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/22/2012 9:27:16 PM)

I've been saying what is this report for years--and I'd not ever read it before tonight!!

All of us, at most income brackets, pay far too few taxes.



FrostedFlake -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/22/2012 10:00:10 PM)

You are almost certainly right, Erieangel, though it might help a bit if we didn't fight wars for fun.

Mitt, bless his heart, doesn't see it that way.

Got a minute?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU9V6eOFO38&feature=player_embedded

To summarize, Mitt says 47% of us pay NO taxes, and that's why he can't bribe them (Us!) with promises of low taxes. Why does he say this? He is bribing millionaires with promises of low taxes.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/secret-video-romney-private-fundraiser



DesideriScuri -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 5:33:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
I've been saying what is this report for years--and I'd not ever read it before tonight!!
All of us, at most income brackets, pay far too few taxes.


This is only true if spending increases are ignored. If we weren't spending as much as we are, we'd not have any deficit/debt issues. That we have the need for the spending increases does fall an awful lot on Bush, but not all of it. And, the spending increases have nothing to do with tax cuts.




vincentML -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 7:25:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
I've been saying what is this report for years--and I'd not ever read it before tonight!!
All of us, at most income brackets, pay far too few taxes.


This is only true if spending increases are ignored. If we weren't spending as much as we are, we'd not have any deficit/debt issues. That we have the need for the spending increases does fall an awful lot on Bush, but not all of it. And, the spending increases have nothing to do with tax cuts.




Agree that the spending increase and tax cuts are not linked. However, there remains the issue of budget deficit and national debt, which i am told will lead to economic disaster, although i have never seen a clear explanation of how that will occur, and would appreciate some schooling. Simply pointing to Greece is unsatisfying.

Given however that we need to get our budget in order leaves us in a pickle b/c the Dems resist "entitlement reform" and the Reps resist tax increases. So, we have two, not one, third rails of politics.

i think the Bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire for everyone, the cap gains tax adjusted upward if that is not part of the Bush cuts, and subsidies to mature industries should be cut. Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security should be adjusted only to insure their continuence where needed but not to solve the budget deficit.

It is not surprising that we have political gridlock after the crash of '08. There is precedence for it in our history. There is a good chance the issue will not be resolved.



FrostedFlake -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 11:30:22 AM)

quote:

VincentML
There is a good chance the issue will not be resolved.


I think the report released 9 days ago yanks the foundation of the GOP argument. "Tax cuts boost the economy". HOGWASH! Tax cuts only change who gets the money. If the issue is not affected by this, just like building 7 was, then we ARE in deep Kim-chee.



Yachtie -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 12:05:31 PM)

I read here that the question is "what to do with other people's money'.

The growth of GDP in the 50's is easily attributable to post WW-II reconstruction of Europe and to a lesser degree Japan, etc. It's quite natural and realistic to see that such diminished as Europe took up its own reins.

However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution.

Seeing as how There is not conclusive evidence, however, to substantiate a clear relationship between the 65-year steady reduction in the top tax rates and economic growth and that the reduction in the top tax rates have had little association with saving, investment, or productivity growth, it sure do come through loud and clear -

PROGRESSIVE / LIBERAL ENVY!

So, over the past 60 years or so Progressivism has taken from one and given to another. There's a dependency class now.

Good job.[8|]




DomKen -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 1:43:28 PM)

Due to the nature of capitalism wealth tends to concentrate in the hands of the wealthiest.

It's pretty simple to see. The more wealth one has the less of it must be spent simply to survive. The rest can simply be held/invested. So presuming at least basic competence the welthy will get wealthier. Since monetary policy is aimed at preventing high inflation the money supply expands more slowly than this concentration.

The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt. Unfortunately econimc analysis in the US if the 50's was pro capitalism as part of the Cold War and very little attentionwas paid to the successes these socialist policies had in the US and were having outside the US. So we stopped funding people's movement into the middle class and stopped taxing the wealthy at high rates. Wealth naturally flowed out of the hands of the masses and into the coffers of the wealthy. Now the wealthy have acquired so much wealth and power that we find ourselves facing plans by the plutocrats to reduce their taxation to 0 (Both Romney and Ryan have plans to eliminate cap gains taxes).



vincentML -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 2:06:37 PM)

quote:

So, over the past 60 years or so Progressivism has taken from one and given to another. There's a dependency class now.


There has always been a dependency class. Before Progressivism they were ignored and left to starve in their hovels.



Yachtie -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 2:28:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt.


By the above one would have to conclude that the middle class was built by taxes paid by the wealthy and government largess.[8|][8|][8|]



DomKen -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 4:20:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt.


By the above one would have to conclude that the middle class was built by taxes paid by the wealthy and government largess.[8|][8|][8|]

It pretty much was. You're welcome to present contrary evidence but note that means numbers not assertions.



Yachtie -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 4:31:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt.


By the above one would have to conclude that the middle class was built by taxes paid by the wealthy and government largess.[8|][8|][8|]

It pretty much was. You're welcome to present contrary evidence but note that means numbers not assertions.



You mean as opposed to your assertions?[8|]

You are not worthy any expense of energy.



DomKen -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/23/2012 8:07:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt.


By the above one would have to conclude that the middle class was built by taxes paid by the wealthy and government largess.[8|][8|][8|]

It pretty much was. You're welcome to present contrary evidence but note that means numbers not assertions.



You mean as opposed to your assertions?[8|]

You are not worthy any expense of energy.

I can back my statements with both math and facts. You obviously cannot.



DomYngBlk -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 5:20:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

I read here that the question is "what to do with other people's money'.

The growth of GDP in the 50's is easily attributable to post WW-II reconstruction of Europe and to a lesser degree Japan, etc. It's quite natural and realistic to see that such diminished as Europe took up its own reins.

However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution.

Seeing as how There is not conclusive evidence, however, to substantiate a clear relationship between the 65-year steady reduction in the top tax rates and economic growth and that the reduction in the top tax rates have had little association with saving, investment, or productivity growth, it sure do come through loud and clear -

PROGRESSIVE / LIBERAL ENVY!

So, over the past 60 years or so Progressivism has taken from one and given to another. There's a dependency class now.

Good job.[8|]




So your theory is that because of Progresivism over the past 60 years the USA has not been a success?  That is a fairly bold theory.



DesideriScuri -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 5:21:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt.

By the above one would have to conclude that the middle class was built by taxes paid by the wealthy and government largess.[8|][8|][8|]

It pretty much was. You're welcome to present contrary evidence but note that means numbers not assertions.

You mean as opposed to your assertions?[8|]
You are not worthy any expense of energy.

I can back my statements with both math and facts. You obviously cannot.


So, DomKen, are you saying that the Middle Class was grown to the size it is through government largess (paid for by taxes paid by the wealthy), and that we need to tax the wealthy more to continue to subsidize an entire economic class of people? That strikes you as "good" and/or "right?"



DomYngBlk -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 5:34:20 AM)

How about the converse. Are you saying we will be able to lift all boats, help all children reach their full academic acheivement through lower taxes and less funding of schools?



DomKen -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 1:06:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The New Deal, WW2 spending and post war veterans benefits put wealth into the hands of the middle class directly while taxing the wealthy at very high rates. This allowed us to greatly expand the middle class while not running up crippling debt.

By the above one would have to conclude that the middle class was built by taxes paid by the wealthy and government largess.[8|][8|][8|]

It pretty much was. You're welcome to present contrary evidence but note that means numbers not assertions.

You mean as opposed to your assertions?[8|]
You are not worthy any expense of energy.

I can back my statements with both math and facts. You obviously cannot.


So, DomKen, are you saying that the Middle Class was grown to the size it is through government largess (paid for by taxes paid by the wealthy), and that we need to tax the wealthy more to continue to subsidize an entire economic class of people? That strikes you as "good" and/or "right?"

I'm a socialist. It strikes me as obvious that one of government's roles is to provide social and economic justice to the people. That includes using taxation to undo harm done by capitalism.



vincentML -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 1:58:06 PM)

~FR~

Before the Progressive Era . . . . Pennsylvania coal miners

[image]local://upfiles/897398/860E9BC1806A4D7BBBDC519442AF2043.jpg[/image]



DesideriScuri -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 3:52:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
How about the converse. Are you saying we will be able to lift all boats, help all children reach their full academic acheivement through lower taxes and less funding of schools?


Not going to answer my question, though?

And, yes, I do believe we'll be able to lift everyone through lower taxes, and a stronger economic engine. As far as school funding goes, there's enough bullshit schools have to pay for, and enough bullshit teachers are expected to do (by parents), that no amount of money is going to make education solvent. And, I'm also very much against dumping more money after bad money.

You, apparently, don't know my stance on public education (k-12 education). That's fine and all, and I may not have ever truly made my points on it either. But, you don't know me. You don't know my stance. I have relatives that are/were teachers. I have relatives that are/were school administrators. I've seen what they have to deal with and what they have to go through.

I do not believe teachers are underpaid. I do believe they are overworked. Parents have become less and less parents and more akin to sitters and friends with their kids. Teachers and schools are not only relied upon to provide much in the way of parental responsibilities (ie. food, behavior modification, etc.), but they are expected to provide those things.

Do kids learn more and better when they are not going hungry? You're damn right they do. But, is that the responsibility of the parents, or the schools?

Parental disengagement has ruined what once was one the best educations in the world. Now, it's in shambles, with suburban districts tending to do better than urban districts (mostly because the parents are more engaged in their kids educations and more supportive of education in general), and most of the suburban districts spend less per pupil (and, I know that has a lot to do with the incredible amount of services urban schools provide that suburban schools tend to not have to spend).

You might want to rethink starting a discussion on funding public education with me.



DesideriScuri -> RE: FYI : Real data about tax rates. (9/24/2012 3:53:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
~FR~
Before the Progressive Era . . . . Pennsylvania coal miners


And, only because of the Progressive Era, kids no longer work in mines? Is that what you are trying to say?



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