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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:13:31 PM   
stellauk


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I disagree that Americans stand out here more than anyone else other than the fact that the world is opening up for them and they're culturally not as isolated as they were before the Internet became popular throughout the world.

It's something that's Western, it's cultural decline assisted by social programming of based on values where making a profit for minimum cost is the primary objective. It's a society shaped by wage enslavement and neo-liberal consumerism boosted by technology and many people are losing the ability to think, to relate and to understand beyond the superficial.

The 1960's and 1970's was different. Socialism was fashionable, trade unions were acceptable, careers and jobs from the cradle to the grave were common, more women stayed at home and the bedrock of the community and society were the street corner matriarchs. The streets were safer because many were afraid of being outed by their community by the mothers and grandmothers who kept a watchful eye.

This changed in the 1980's when socialism was discredited, industries were closed down and sold off because they weren't profitable enough, which resulted in unemployment, poverty and social fragmentation. Out of this came the concept of there is no such thing as society and we were all programmed to be self-sufficient and to rely more on ourselves.

I can remember a news report in the 1980's on television showing Margaret Thatcher paying a visit to some Oxford College. She encountered a female student who she asked what she was studying. 'Ancient Norse Culture' came the response.

'What a luxury' commented Margaret Thatcher. Those who adhere to this political thinking, out on the right, do not fear just intellectuals and intelligence, they also fear creativity, they fear people who don't conform, and also anyone else who isn't prepared to sell themselves out for the profits of the few and the holy grail of economic prosperity - consumer spending.

They are anti-culture - which explains why much of our music industry could also pass for a cellphone ringtone industry, television has been taken over by the talentless and reality TV and the motion picture industry is a rather vapid shadow of its former self.

But that culture has always been necessary - it is the glue that holds communities and societies together, it is the source of inspiration, hopes and dreams among people, and we need people with new ideas who can create and inspire for the benefit of others. These are the people who really create the jobs - not the corporate businessmen.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:14:29 PM   
pyschosubmission


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When I rule the world, and rule the world I most certainly will, there's gonna be some changes

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:20:41 PM   
LaTigresse


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Can you then go back in time and upgrade my formal education?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:25:36 PM   
pyschosubmission


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I don't see why not, the Doctor works for me in this imaginary benevolent dictatorship

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:29:32 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission

I don't see why not, the Doctor works for me in this imaginary benevolent dictatorship



Ah, well that's a double edged sword, innit...

Honestly, I have always wanted a doctorate but the cost is just prohibitive. One of my clients has explained about getting the SCHOOL to pay for it, but then I have to work for the school, and how does that keep the office open?

And while I am not disagreeing with Stella, anti-intellectualism was alive and well here long before the 60's. Studying glamour topics like Norse myths IS a luxury---because it doesn't put lutefisk on the table! Who has time for such things, right thinking folk are busy working! etc.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 1:38:48 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission
I don't see why not, the Doctor works for me in this imaginary benevolent dictatorship


Would you be so kind as to get me a sonic screwdriver?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 2:16:23 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Okay, a lot of great comments. I have some reaction to a few (I'm not quoting people just to make my post shorter - so, people, just follow the thread):

Marc2b - I don't know enough about South America to add perspective to this dialogue. If someone else does, please do. Is South America more like the US or more like France on this?

LaT - I do think as education becomes more and more out of reach for the average American that this will continue to be an issue. Although I would argue that anti-intellectualism was around even when public education was doing much better, and tuition rates were much lower. Certainly since the 80s, education has increasingly become a luxury good.

LadyHib - I have long been an advocate for having courses like civics courses, financial planning etc. at the high school level, so that young adults graduate with certain life skills. I also support a trade school system like what you see in much of Europe. We are in a weird situation where there is tremendous anti-intellectualism, but then when one begins to discuss giving young people real world marketable skills that, too, is scoffed at. People hate intellectuals, but also seem to hate the idea of blue collar or trades type work. So we end up with a bunch of people in the middle - midlevel management types who are neither smart enough to contribute at a higher level, nor trained in the skills we need for our workforce. What gives here? (and with DomYngBlk, I also agree religion has not helped).

Madramblings - Bill G and Mark Z have, of course, done alright for themselves because, like many others on this thread they don't care what others think of them. But please understand they are also among two of the most despised people in the country (and only partly because they are rich). They are absolutely despised by part of the population simply for being smart. I wouldn't call them much beloved by the American populace.

Stellauk - I agree that part of the anti-intellectual sentiment is a sentiment against things that are not seen as "useful", however, I would say that in the US, this extends more broadly to just "smart" people in general, regardless.

Generally, as I read through the comments, it seems to me that some form of education reform is necessary, both in terms of cost, but also a readjustment of what is valued, what is considered important educationally.

And just to return to the issue of leadership for a moment, the average American would never contemplate going to a doctor that did not have a medical degree, would probably not want to drive on a bridge that had not been designed by an engineer, would not want to be protected by a police force that had not been trained on how to use a gun safely. And yet, at times, what we choose for leadership at the highest levels, Congress, President, etc. leaves a lot to be desired. And the politicians who are well educated immediately get labeled elitist. Immediately.

I feel like America is driving on a bridge that was designed by a reality tv personality - and the question is, how long is it going to hold before we go plunging into oblivion? Do we not deserve higher quality people in politics?







< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 10/3/2012 2:20:32 PM >


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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 2:58:06 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyschosubmission
I don't think Americans are any more anti-intellectual than any other country, certainly here in Britain we have our fair share of talentless celebrities, famous purely for being famous.


I can't agree, PS. I think the USA has had a stronger tradition, by far, of anti-intellectualism than most Western nations. It has more 'wise simpletons' in its mythical history than any other country I can think of. To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'. Only in the USA can you become a venerated genius in certain areas - like politics - not just despite a lack of education in the the subject, but precisely because of a lack of education in it. Think of Ayn Rand - and why she's *so* well-known in the USA and venerated by so many Americans - but almost entirely ignored as a crackpot everywhere else in the world.

The 'stupid sage' thing works in the USA, like nowhere else, anywhere on the planet. Weird, but quite fascinating. 'The less you've learned, the wiser you are'. It beats me - but, then, I'm not American.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:23:10 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Why is it that Americans, as a group, are anti-intellectual?


Would you not say as a bottom line that the US is a world leader in Science and Industry and has been for 50 years? That said your theory about intellectuals does not hold water.

You must separate political notions from reality. Many conservatives like to assign liberalism to certain groups. Media…education…and science as examples. When political dogma collides with science, conservatives look at science theory with distrust.

If however politics and science do not collide then conservatives embrace science and intellectuals.

As an example…science decides trees in a certain area cannot be cut down because that would endanger an owl. Conservatives that support the logging industry and employment will find fault with the scientific findings. They are not necessary assaulting the scientists because they are intellectual but because they will be causing the loss of jobs.

Yet these very same conservatives support the space program…pharmaceutical advances…industrial innovation etc. All the result of intellectuals.

So... conservatives are not anti-intellectuals…just anti-liberal intellectuals that collide with their political views.

Butch

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:33:25 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I can't agree, PS. I think the USA has had a stronger tradition, by far, of anti-intellectualism than most Western nations. It has more 'wise simpletons' in its mythical history than any other country I can think of. To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'.

Yuppers. Tell us about the high intellectual idealism of such Brit films as "This Is England" and "Green Street Hooligans." Put Oxford and Cambridge front and center did they? No class system in Great Britain, is there?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:38:47 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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When I think of intellectualism, I do not think of *technology*. Semantic difference, Butch?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:41:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Would you not say as a bottom line that the US is a world leader in Science and Industry and has been for 50 years?

To be honest, I wouldn't say that without some data on the subject. You may be right, but I don't know for sure.


quote:

That said your theory about intellectuals does not hold water.

Here you seem to be making a logical leap. American prowess in science and industry doesn't necessarily disprove the existence of a strand of anti-intellectualism in our culture.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:52:08 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

Someone on another thread suggested Richard Hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. I haven't had a chance to read it yet (since it's not about animals or Woodrow Wilson), but it sounds interesting.

Based on my own sense of history, I will hazard a guess that anti-intellectualism is rooted in part in (higher) education's traditionally being an elite pastime. People may have resented Harvard and Yale and other ivied institutions because those places produced the folks who ruled the nation, often with scant thought for those below them on the socioeconomic ladder.

Interesting tidbit from today's political landscape: A recent New Yorker story on the Massachusetts senate race noted that Scott Brown constantly refers to his opponent as "Professor Warren."



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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:58:36 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Yes, DC. It all attaches to elitism. Even with schools--my undergrad work is from the University of Michigan. Way shinier than say, Saginaw valley.

It also attaches to MONEY. The luxury of having TIME to study, and of course, the path to higher paying careers. The ability to create new products and technologies.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 3:58:54 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Why is it that Americans, as a group, are anti-intellectual?


Would you not say as a bottom line that the US is a world leader in Science and Industry and has been for 50 years? That said your theory about intellectuals does not hold water.

You must separate political notions from reality. Many conservatives like to assign liberalism to certain groups. Media…education…and science as examples. When political dogma collides with science, conservatives look at science theory with distrust.

If however politics and science do not collide then conservatives embrace science and intellectuals.

As an example…science decides trees in a certain area cannot be cut down because that would endanger an owl. Conservatives that support the logging industry and employment will find fault with the scientific findings. They are not necessary assaulting the scientists because they are intellectual but because they will be causing the loss of jobs.

Yet these very same conservatives support the space program…pharmaceutical advances…industrial innovation etc. All the result of intellectuals.

So... conservatives are not anti-intellectuals…just anti-liberal intellectuals that collide with their political views.

Butch


We are arguably leaders in some Science and Industry, but not in others. And have you actually walked through a lab, either in a private company, or at any of the top academic institutions lately?? You do realize, don't you, that most of our science and tech people are foreign born, and at least partially foreign educated. We are not a supportive culture when it comes to intellectualism. We have a tremendous shortage of homegrown people in the math, science and technology industries. This is fact.

I do not agree that conservatives are the only ones who are anti-intellectual. I think the anti-intellectualism is quite pervasive and goes beyond political stripes.

The very statement, "if politics and science do not collide then conservatives embrace science and intellects" is anti-intellectual. Why? Because science and intellectual pursuits are about finding answers, realities and scientific truths. You cannot embrace science and intellectualism without embracing the idea that sometimes ideas, even ones own ideas, are disproven. The history of science is filled with men and women who might have shown research about something, and then further research revealed that another theory or hypothesis held greater weight. A true scientist and intellectual is willing to abandon a hypothesis if something else comes along that has greater explanatory power. Someone who consistently rejects current scientific findings in favor of myth and old hypotheses is not being intellectual and not being supportive of intellectualism.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:04:43 PM   
GotSteel


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Literal or at least very close to literal interpretations of the Bible are rather popular in the U.S. What the Bible literally says is also contradicted by quite a few things that we've learned about reality. Cognitive dissonance generally requires that people pick one, christian fundamentalism or knowledge of reality.

Quite a few christians have picked reality and as such there are all sorts of non literal interpretations of the Bible. However, quite a few christians have also picked fundamentalism and as such they have to reject broad swaths of knowledge. Furthermore in order to promote their belief system they need to oppose education of such knowledge.

They've also come out against critical thinking because it allows the next generation to think this stuff through for themselves instead of just swallowing it hook line and sinker.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:05:05 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Yes, DC. It all attaches to elitism. Even with schools--my undergrad work is from the University of Michigan. Way shinier than say, Saginaw valley.

Apparently Harvard students and alumni are so wary of bad reactions that they're cautious about what they call dropping the H-bomb.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:07:34 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I can't agree, PS. I think the USA has had a stronger tradition, by far, of anti-intellectualism than most Western nations. It has more 'wise simpletons' in its mythical history than any other country I can think of. To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'.

Yuppers. Tell us about the high intellectual idealism of such Brit films as "This Is England" and "Green Street Hooligans." Put Oxford and Cambridge front and center did they? No class system in Great Britain, is there?


I don't know those films, Vincent. On the other hand, though it's not a British film, I *do* very much know of the film Forrest Gump. Want to make a bet on how many other Brits would say likewise? ;-)

Come on, really. Not only did Americans make a b-list cretin like Reagan a politician, they made him their national leader. Other countries might choose novelists, poets or artists. Actors are the bottom of the intellectual pile amongst all such creative types - yet, Americans chose not only an actor, but one of the worst actors alive at the time. Seriously, don't you find that at least a bit embarrassing, as an American? And even if it weren't for Ronnie, you'd have Arnie and Clint waiting in the wings - intellectual giants, somewhat not, hmm?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:14:14 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I can't agree, PS. I think the USA has had a stronger tradition, by far, of anti-intellectualism than most Western nations. It has more 'wise simpletons' in its mythical history than any other country I can think of. To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'.

Yuppers. Tell us about the high intellectual idealism of such Brit films as "This Is England" and "Green Street Hooligans." Put Oxford and Cambridge front and center did they? No class system in Great Britain, is there?

vincentML, I'm not sure I completely understand your point, and maybe you can help me out.

This is England strikes me as a very poignant (and realistic) film about a young boy embracing the skinhead movement and then coming face to face with the realities of what that means. I would say that is actually heavy going thematically. Trying to understand the appeal of hate groups within the context of being true to yourself and your own beliefs. The lead character is not a "wise simpleton" like Forrest Gump. Not at all. And the film is hardly trying to glorify the National Front. I saw the film as an appeal for tolerance, actually. Just because the movie is about skinheads doesn't mean it's anti-intellectual.

And isn't Green Street Hooligans an American film?? I realize it is set in London, but it seems to me to be a product of the Hollywood machinery, and thus reflects a very American viewpoint.

Anyway, if you can clarify, I would appreciate it.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:16:18 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
We are arguably leaders in some Science and Industry, but not in others. And have you actually walked through a lab, either in a private company, or at any of the top academic institutions lately?? You do realize, don't you, that most of our science and tech people are foreign born, and at least partially foreign educated. We are not a supportive culture when it comes to intellectualism. We have a tremendous shortage of homegrown people in the math, science and technology industries. This is fact.


My classes were at least 1/3 sometimes 1/2 Indian and that's in the extremely un-diverse state of New Hampshire.

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