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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:27:06 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
We are arguably leaders in some Science and Industry, but not in others. And have you actually walked through a lab, either in a private company, or at any of the top academic institutions lately?? You do realize, don't you, that most of our science and tech people are foreign born, and at least partially foreign educated. We are not a supportive culture when it comes to intellectualism. We have a tremendous shortage of homegrown people in the math, science and technology industries. This is fact.


My classes were at least 1/3 sometimes 1/2 Indian and that's in the extremely un-diverse state of New Hampshire.

Yeah, trust me, I know, I am of Indian heritage....

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:46:06 PM   
GotSteel


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ORIGINAL: kdsub
As an example…science decides trees in a certain area cannot be cut down because that would endanger an owl.


................................................................................................................



Do you even know what science is?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:48:30 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Yes, DC. It all attaches to elitism. Even with schools--my undergrad work is from the University of Michigan. Way shinier than say, Saginaw valley.

Apparently Harvard students and alumni are so wary of bad reactions that they're cautious about what they call dropping the H-bomb.

Where else on the planet do people have to hide the fact that they are smart. You have to wonder at a society that gives people a hard time for being smart, or having attended good schools.

And while I agree that education is expensive, the top schools, actually give out a lot of money (scholarships, stipends, subsidized loans) for really talented kids to attend. In other words, just because someone says they went to Harvard or Yale, people should not assume they come from a wealthy background (witness Obama and Clinton). One has to be careful about that assumption.

So while I do agree that education has become very expensive, as Americans we should be careful not to assume that everyone who attends a good school came from wealth. If you meet someone from Harvard is your first though "smart" or your first thought "rich kid"? My first thought is "smart".

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:51:12 PM   
Politesub53


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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I can't agree, PS. I think the USA has had a stronger tradition, by far, of anti-intellectualism than most Western nations. It has more 'wise simpletons' in its mythical history than any other country I can think of. To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'.

Yuppers. Tell us about the high intellectual idealism of such Brit films as "This Is England" and "Green Street Hooligans." Put Oxford and Cambridge front and center did they? No class system in Great Britain, is there?



Green Street was about an American in the UK....

I think, world wide, there will always be animosity to those seen as intellectual. There are seen by many as outsiders, or different, or worst of all, a traitor to their roots. I caught hell on the council estate I lived on for going to Grammar school. oddly enough, many of the lads picking on me didnt see I had been brought up the same as them and was able to look after myself. My mother could have gone to Uni in the late fourties, as could her sisters, all three had to go out to work though, to help pay the family bills. Thats just how it was back then.

Thatcher was seen as a bit of a traitor as she was the daughter of a greengrocer, who studied and did well for herself. her politics aside, old money looked down on her for her roots, while the working class looked down on her for bettering herself.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 4:51:26 PM   
dcnovice


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In other words, just because someone says they went to Harvard or Yale, people should not assume they come from a wealthy background (witness Obama and Clinton). One has to be careful about that assumption.

Agreed. It was probably truer earlier in the country's history when a lot of our cultural views took shape.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:01:16 PM   
Rule


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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I think, world wide, there will always be animosity to those seen as intellectual.

Being a supergenius (due to Divine intervention) I do am the recipient of some animosity and disbelieve, indeed.

It is the nature of the beast, I surmise.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:02:02 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think, world wide, there will always be animosity to those seen as intellectual. There are seen by many as outsiders, or different, or worst of all, a traitor to their roots.

Thatcher was seen as a bit of a traitor as she was the daughter of a greengrocer, who studied and did well for herself. her politics aside, old money looked down on her for her roots, while the working class looked down on her for bettering herself.



I'm not sure that I agree necessarily that worldwide there is animosity to those seen as intellectual. I do think America is one of those places. Many of you on this thread seem to feel the UK is somewhat in the same camp (although having lived and worked in both places, I really feel the UK is quite different on this dimension).

I don't get the feeling that this sentiment exists in most of Asia. Being really smart is a way to compete and get ahead and people admire people who are smart.

I also don't get the feeling that this sentiment exists in Continental Europe either. People there also seem to value intellectuals.

And whatever the spectrum is, I am quite confident that the US is on the one extreme. Sadly.

Your comment about Thatcher (and others have made similar points) makes me realize that class, even in the US, is still an issue. Smart is still associated with upper class. And in the US, it is also associated with race. Hence witness African Americans who criticize those who do well in school as "acting white".

This anti-intellectual attitude actually prevents some children from achieving their true potential in life. Again, just sad.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:03:15 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		FTP.......Green Street was made in the UK by Odd Lot Entertainment, which is based in california, but a firm called Yank Film Funding, based in the UK was also involved.

Probably a transatlantic venture

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:23:05 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I can't agree, PS. I think the USA has had a stronger tradition, by far, of anti-intellectualism than most Western nations. It has more 'wise simpletons' in its mythical history than any other country I can think of. To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'.

Yuppers. Tell us about the high intellectual idealism of such Brit films as "This Is England" and "Green Street Hooligans." Put Oxford and Cambridge front and center did they? No class system in Great Britain, is there?

vincentML, I'm not sure I completely understand your point, and maybe you can help me out.

This is England strikes me as a very poignant (and realistic) film about a young boy embracing the skinhead movement and then coming face to face with the realities of what that means. I would say that is actually heavy going thematically. Trying to understand the appeal of hate groups within the context of being true to yourself and your own beliefs. The lead character is not a "wise simpleton" like Forrest Gump. Not at all. And the film is hardly trying to glorify the National Front. I saw the film as an appeal for tolerance, actually. Just because the movie is about skinheads doesn't mean it's anti-intellectual.

And isn't Green Street Hooligans an American film?? I realize it is set in London, but it seems to me to be a product of the Hollywood machinery, and thus reflects a very American viewpoint.

Anyway, if you can clarify, I would appreciate it.

FTP, as I recall both mentioned films high lighted characters who were violent models of low education. In Hooligans the Harvard boy was either a drop out or failure [can't recall which] who admires the FB gangs until there is a tragedy. But, my point is that it is disingenuous to hold up one film and claim it reflects American culture, as was done above. No more than does The History Boys reflect all that is good and intellectual in British life.

Am I allowed then to ask what other culture but Britain could produce Pink Floyd:

"Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall. All in all you're just another brick in the wall. We don't need no education . . ."



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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:36:53 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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ORIGINAL: vincentML

FTP, as I recall both mentioned films high lighted characters who were violent models of low education. In Hooligans the Harvard boy was either a drop out or failure [can't recall which] who admires the FB gangs until there is a tragedy. But, my point is that it is disingenuous to hold up one film and claim it reflects American culture, as was done above. No more than does The History Boys reflect all that is good and intellectual in British life.

Am I allowed then to ask what other culture but Britain could produce Pink Floyd:

"Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall. All in all you're just another brick in the wall. We don't need no education . . ."



Okay, I see what you are trying to say, but I think he was using Forrest Gump as an example of a a type of person and an attitude (one that does exist here) - and it is true that the Forrest Gump character is a recurring one in American media - nowhere else do I see that type of character being held in such high regard as I do here. It is not so much that the movie reflects all of American culture, as the character in the movie reflects a type of American everyman that Americans do hold up in higher regard than they really should.

And no dissing on Pink Floyd you don't see the intellectualism in those lyrics - I'm not being sarcastic. Teaching everyone to simply think the same way is not teaching them to be intellectual.

I am approaching the thread more from the point of view of constructs such as "smart", "intellectual" and "critical thinking" as opposed to "education" in and of itself. The wrong education is worse than no education at all. After all, one has to be taught to hate.

Anyway, I still feel the US is anti-intellectual, and it is more anti-intellectual than other places, even if people think the UK is a close second.




< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 10/3/2012 5:39:19 PM >

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:44:25 PM   
dcnovice


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To my mind, only the USA could have produced a film like 'Forrest Gump'.

Tommy comes to mind as potentially Gumpish, but I could be wrong about that.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:46:52 PM   
dcnovice


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and it is true that the Forrest Gump character is a recurring one in American media

I'm having trouble thinking of other examples. Any that come to mind?

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:53:38 PM   
cloudboy


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Smart people are generally viewed with suspicion and hatred, rather than admired. It has led to a society that elevates the average, and wants their leadership to resemble them. Utterly bizarre.


Yes, a large swath of this country regarded Sarah Palin as a rock star and a hero. According to them, Katie Couric maligned her. The most effective American leaders are able to connect with this segment of the US population. Ronald Reagan excelled in this department because he over simplified everything and painted all his pictures in black and white. Reaganites probably thought his second term Alzheimer's symptoms were endearing.

Clinton also connected with the average Americans because he came from a broken home and had such human foibles to go with his razor sharp intellect and photographic memory.

I think Romney is a bit of a space alien to the Republican, red-state base because he is smart and wealthy. He isn't a straight-forward gay-immigrant hating, gun-toting, uber-patriot --- he's more a technocratic businessman who is awkward before crowds and uncomfortable answering questions.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/3/2012 5:55:11 PM >

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:54:09 PM   
kdsub


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To be honest, I wouldn't say that without some data on the subject. You may be right, but I don't know for sure.



Here is a way… go to a Nobel Prize website and run a search as I did. I searched by country for all classifications of Nobel Prizes awarded between the years of 1900 and 2012.

Of the 578 awarded in all categories the UK won 62.…France won 28...Germany won 52... Russia won 11

The US won 177.

I did not run all the countries but by my small sample the US is well represented compared to European countries anyway.

Butch



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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 5:56:59 PM   
kdsub


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You do realize, don't you, that most of our science and tech people are foreign born



No it is just we have the overall best, or at least the most competent, technology schools in the world. Besides that we as Americans are… immigrants from other places. Many who come here for a better education end up staying and becoming US citizens.

This means we will have many gifted men and women coming here for a good technical education and they are well represented in American industry many as US citizens.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 6:01:02 PM   
Anaxagoras


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The US seems to produce a lot of content when it comes to academia (books, journals etc.), and indeed the OECD stated that the US has the highest number of people (per capita) attending third-level education in the world. I think it may be that Americans (perhaps like that of other parts of the English speaking world) don't wear intellect on a sleeve unlike some other cultures. Anyway I think there is something more worthy about the wisdom of the "simpleton" because theirs is based on lived experience rather than that of a book.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 6:01:49 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

To be honest, I wouldn't say that without some data on the subject. You may be right, but I don't know for sure.



Here is a way… go to a Nobel Prize website and run a search as I did. I searched by country for all classifications of Nobel Prizes awarded between the years of 1900 and 2012.

Of the 578 awarded in all categories the UK won 62.…France won 28...Germany won 52... Russia won 11

The US won 177.

I did not run all the countries but by my small sample the US is well represented compared to European countries anyway.

Butch



you and I had the same thought, Butch:

UNITED STATES NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS
(39% of world total, 47% of world total in the sciences, medicine, and economics)

FTP~ may I suggest you are confusing national respect for intellectual achievement with a conservative religious/political startegy from the Right.

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 6:10:13 PM   
kdsub


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FTP~ may I suggest you are confusing national respect for intellectual achievement with a conservative religious/political startegy from the Right.


Not confusing...reconciling

People seem to forget the so called religious extremist right is a very small portion of the population where the religious are large but varied in its political beliefs.

Butch

ps... damn terrible sentence structure but you get the idea I hope...sheee

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/3/2012 6:13:38 PM >

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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 6:19:16 PM   
PeonForHer


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ORIGINAL: vincentML
"Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall. All in all you're just another brick in the wall. We don't need no education . . .


Never one of my favourite Pink Floyd sentiments, I have to say.


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RE: Why Are Americans Anti-Intellectual? - 10/3/2012 6:34:32 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

You do realize, don't you, that most of our science and tech people are foreign born



No it is just we have the overall best, or at least the most competent, technology schools in the world. Besides that we as Americans are… immigrants from other places. Many who come here for a better education end up staying and becoming US citizens.

This means we will have many gifted men and women coming here for a good technical education and they are well represented in American industry many as US citizens.

Without in any way detracting from the contributions of immigrants (a group that includes my own ancestors), it's tricky, I think, to tease out whether their achievements reflect the influence of U.S. culture, their native cultures, both, or neither.

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