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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 6:37:15 PM   
dcnovice


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This paragraph in the article gave me pause:

Both pastors were questioned repeatedly by border officials about the film and a protest sign that read "Koran Burning Site" and another saying, "Islam is the New Nazism," were confiscated at the border, said Stephanie Sapp. She said they were asked several times if they were bringing a copy of "Innocence of Muslims" into Canada.

That does make it sound that denying him entry may indeed have stemmed from a desire to keep him from speaking freely (albeit vilely). And that troubles me.

Interestingly, today's Washington Post has an essay on threats to free speech.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 8:21:54 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
This paragraph in the article gave me pause:
Both pastors were questioned repeatedly by border officials about the film and a protest sign that read "Koran Burning Site" and another saying, "Islam is the New Nazism," were confiscated at the border, said Stephanie Sapp. She said they were asked several times if they were bringing a copy of "Innocence of Muslims" into Canada.
That does make it sound that denying him entry may indeed have stemmed from a desire to keep him from speaking freely (albeit vilely). And that troubles me.
Interestingly, today's Washington Post has an essay on threats to free speech.


dc, this is a landmark day. subspaceseven and I actually agree on something (and, LaTigresse and I agreed on something, too... wonder if there's a full moon a'coming....anway...). Freedom of speech wasn't stopped. Pastor Jones can still say whatever he wants. He doesn't have to be granted an audience. No pulpit has to be given to him.

The NeoNazi's came into Toledo to have a "parade." The Mayor got lambasted, as did the police, for allowing the group a permit. But, there were no grounds for not allowing the permit. Of course, all Hell broke loose since the march was planned for a predominantly black and relatively poor neighborhood. The neighborhood came out in counter-protest and there was quite a bit of shouting. The police were there, in force, to keep things somewhat civil. When the situation started heating up, the cops got between the neighbors and the neo nazi's to try to prevent a riot. When that didn't help, they ushered the neo-nazi's out of the area. The counter-protestors went berserk, viewing the cops' actions as discriminating against their own fellow Toledoans. Public property was destroyed. An ambulance was busted up. A police car was torched.

Now, if the neo-nazi's want to protest again in Toledo, they can. But, it isn't going to be in a predominantly black neighborhood, and it will be even more heavily policed, making sure Toledoans are kept well away.

The neo-nazi's were also pissed at the cops for infringing their right to free speech when they were ushered out of harm's way.

They can say what they want. As long as shit doesn't get violent, they should accept whatever consequences naturally occur from their free speech.

For Pastor Jones, that means he wasn't allowed to enter Canada.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 8:28:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

That does make it sound that denying him entry may indeed have stemmed from a desire to keep him from speaking freely (albeit vilely).


Many countries have laws against hate speech.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 9:20:51 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What was the stated reason?


He violates Canada's "No Assholes" statute.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 9:22:05 PM   
SternSkipper


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Status: offline 		Or maybe Lucy says so. Either way, I'm good with it.


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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 9:37:41 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

a dui will get you refused entry... they have already said they will look into his case for future admittance....
plus they havent actually admitted they denied him, or why

even Prez Bush needed to get special permission to visit Canada when he was elected due to his dui..

that said tho, burning the Koran is imo hate speech and reason enough to ban the dude from Canada, imo..

its not like it is easy to get into the US if they got ya on their list.. The US can refuse entry even if you admit publicly to smoking pot in the past, like Canadian Olympic snowboarder Ross Rebulati was.. he had to jump thru hoops but did finally get a US waiver & allowed in to participate in the Olympics..


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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/12/2012 10:43:26 PM   
RemoteUser


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Status: offline 		Intent aside, if there is a reason, bureaucracy will find it.

Freedom of speech is important, but then so is acknowledgement of foreign law when travelling abroad.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 12:53:27 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		Who would want this idiot in their country anyway? It seems, from the number of posts suggesting he stay in Canada, that not even his own fellow-Americans want him around.

Perhaps there's a place for him in Antarctica ....... or Diego Garcia .... or Alcatraz (all Koran free zones to the best of my knowledge)

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 1:15:36 AM   
erieangel


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quote:

In the end, Terry Jones has the right to speak his mind. He also has the responsibility to the consequences of his words.


That's the things those who cry about their freedom of speech so often forget--words have consequences. I work in the mental health field and medical privacy laws prevents me from gossiping about my clients despite my freedom of speech. I can not only lose my job, but be heavily fined and possibly serve jail time if I reveal the medical records of clients. I don't cry about it. I accept that my freedom of speech stops at the other person's privacy issues.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 6:21:24 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Many countries have laws against hate speech.

True. And I'm honestly not sure what I think about that.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 11:52:04 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


Im sure the free speechers will hate this, the irony isnt lost tho:)



Yeah, I do hate it, but I'm not one to get all worked up about what's going on in a good neighbor's house. As long as the irony isn't lost, Lucy.

I hope the Canadians do choose to allow someone into their country for the debate, who will take a strong position in Pastor Douchebag's defense. Of course, someone might get offended by that as well, so maybe not.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 12:09:58 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		You've got to remember Canada's free speech is only free speech they agree with...After all THEY are the perfect democracy don't you know.

All the above snark said… I agree with them.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 12:21:06 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't let the fucker in my house, either, Butch. Not unless he had a mob chasing him.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 12:30:52 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		lol...The price we pay lord lord.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 1:01:45 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

erhaps there's a place for him in Antarctica ....... or Diego Garcia .... or Alcatraz (all Koran free zones to the best of my knowledge


Maybe..... Australia...he will blend in there.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/13/2012 1:02:29 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 1:48:47 PM   
Fightdirecto


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Status: offline 		The basic point is that other countries have no legal, ethical or moral requirement to allow American citizens their rights under the U. S. Constitution when those American citizens are visting their country. The only place where those Constitutional rights apply is within the 50 States and in U. S. Territories (Guam, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, etc.).

In this case, Canada is merely defending its sovereignty - which it is entitled to do.

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 4:06:59 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The basic point is that other countries have no legal, ethical or moral requirement to allow American citizens their rights under the U. S. Constitution when those American citizens are visting their country.

Quite true. I don't think anyone disputes that.

To me, though, the real question is whether it's wise for a nation to use its border officials as a tool for censoring unpopular ideas. Presumably some Canadians were interested in Jones's (repulsive) views, or they wouldn't have invited him to their event. Isn't it a constriction of those Canadians' liberty to deny them the right to hear differing viewpoints?

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 4:15:32 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Isn't it a constriction of those Canadians' liberty to deny them the right to hear differing viewpoints?



Obviously, DC, their rights are of lesser importance than those of ignorant savages who become violent when offended.

Of course, the people who are all in favor of these sorts of suppressions are going to be in a bit of a pickle when the comparison comes up of women who express themselves by dressing in a sexy way, "getting themselves raped," because they were asking for it.

Maybe somebody will ask Justice Kagan about that, one of these days.


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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 4:45:53 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Isn't it a constriction of those Canadians' liberty to deny them the right to hear differing viewpoints?



Obviously, DC, their rights are of lesser importance than those of ignorant savages who become violent when offended.

Of course, the people who are all in favor of these sorts of suppressions are going to be in a bit of a pickle when the comparison comes up of women who express themselves by dressing in a sexy way, "getting themselves raped," because they were asking for it.

Maybe somebody will ask Justice Kagan about that, one of these days.




Like I keep saying, and noticably no one has seccessfully rebutted..... Those of you in the US dont have free speech. Much of what you can and cant say is curtailed by laws.

You cant say anything you like everywhere you wish to. Keep deluding yourself though Rich

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 4:56:14 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


Like I keep saying, and noticably no one has seccessfully rebutted..... Those of you in the US dont have free speech. Much of what you can and cant say is curtailed by laws.

You cant say anything you like everywhere you wish to. Keep deluding yourself though Rich



Yeah, and I keep agreeing with you that, yes, even from my damn near absolutist position on free speech, I still see and understand what happens in the gray areas. The difference is that I want to see those gray areas better lit, while you seem perfectly happy to let ignorance and violence bring on more darkness.

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