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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 5:05:04 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Taking your points in reverse order:

quote:

Much of what you can and cant say is curtailed by laws.

Point taken, and actually made by yours truly on another thread:

We actually accept, rightly or wrongly, a number of circumscriptions on free speech. Copyright laws come to mind, as do truth-in-advertising rules. Then there are laws against slander and libel, along with restrictions on revealing classified information. And that's all in peacetime. When we head to war, the First Amendment truly takes a beating.

That said . . .


quote:

Those of you in the US dont have free speech.

That strikes me as overstatement. We don't have absolutely unlimited free speech. But I'm not sure that means, as you seem to be saying, that we have none at all.

One of my favorite White House stories centers on freedom of expression. A German explorer visited Jefferson and was shocked to find in the President's office an opposition newspaper lambasting Jefferson in vile terms. Why, he asked, wasn't the publisher thrown in jail? Jefferson smiled, gave him the paper as a souvenir, and said, "If you hear our liberties doubted, show them this and tell them where you got it."

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(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 5:07:27 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Yeah, and I keep agreeing with you that, yes, even from my damn near absolutist position on free speech, I still see and understand what happens in the gray areas. The difference is that I want to see those gray areas better lit, while you seem perfectly happy to let ignorance and violence bring on more darkness.



Not me old boy. The difference between us is simple.

I see the stopping of hate speech, which ends up in some form of violence, a reasonable and responsible choice.

Much rather prevent the violence than pick up the pieces.

Oddly enough we have had racists of both communities in court for this this week. The general public are okay with it, with very little moaning over free speech. Some on here, who moan about the denial of free speech, are up in arms about the building of mosques in the US..... Obviously free speech must depend on what faith you are.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 5:11:26 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

Those of you in the US dont have free speech.

That strikes me as overstatement. We don't have absolutely unlimited free speech. But I'm not sure that means, as you seem to be saying, that we have none at all.




I remember you posting about the laws and free speech DC, so we are saying the same thing.

I am not, and have never said, the US doesnt have free speech. Just pointing out to those who insists otherwise that you dont have "Unlimited" free speech.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 6:38:43 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

. Just pointing out to those who insists otherwise


Whom might that be?

Butch

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RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 7:57:38 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		I am unable to understand why Americans are whinging over the free speech issue in this instance.

The US routinely denies entry into the US to people it considers have viewpoints contrary to current US policy eg. Communists were barred (and possibly still are), drug offenders, political offenders (of the wrong ideology), people it considers likely to disrupt public order or commit crimes and so on.

If the US is selective about who it admits why complain when other countries exercise precisely the same right?



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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 8:02:01 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I am unable to understand why Americans are whinging over the free speech issue in this instance.
The US routinely denies entry into the US to people it considers have viewpoints contrary to current US policy eg. Communists were barred (and possibly still are), drug offenders, political offenders (of the wrong ideology), people it considers likely to disrupt public order or commit crimes and so on.
If the US is selective about who it admits why complain when other countries exercise precisely the same right?


I don't think anyone on here was whining about the free speech issue, unless it was that Canada didn't allow him entry and keep him.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 8:05:23 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I am unable to understand why Americans are whinging over the free speech issue in this instance


Name one Canadian that has been denied entry to the US because of a spoken word ...that is what we are talking about Canada and the US.

And no one is whining...as far as I can tell they are all agreeing with Canada's decision...some are just pointing out some minor hypocrisy even if they do agree.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/13/2012 8:34:24 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/13/2012 9:00:32 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		The U.S. reserves the right to deny entry to any person that they deem ineligible for entry to the U.S. for any reason. So, what happens if you have been Denied Entry to the U.S.?

In general, you might be Denied Entry to the U.S. from Canada:

if you have a communicable disease
if you have a criminal record for crimes of moral turpitude (18 or older),
for possession of or trafficking in a controlled substance
if you have a criminal record in Canada
if you have any involvement with terrorism or terrorist organizations (no waivers can be approved for this category)
if you have trafficked in persons
if you have been previously removed (deported) from the U.S.
if you have a U.S. criminal conviction
if you have been deported from and/or otherwise banned from re-entering
if you overstayed in the U.S. previously

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 12:24:47 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I am unable to understand why Americans are whinging over the free speech issue in this instance.
The US routinely denies entry into the US to people it considers have viewpoints contrary to current US policy eg. Communists were barred (and possibly still are), drug offenders, political offenders (of the wrong ideology), people it considers likely to disrupt public order or commit crimes and so on.
If the US is selective about who it admits why complain when other countries exercise precisely the same right?


I don't think anyone on here was whining about the free speech issue, unless it was that Canada didn't allow him entry and keep him.


Please excuse my misunderstanding.

I'm delighted to say that you have expressed a sentiment that I can endorse wholeheartedly!


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/14/2012 12:25:38 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 5:08:51 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

. Just pointing out to those who insists otherwise


Whom might that be?

Butch



I suggest you read all the posts about free speech Butch.

I could give you a list of names, but then I would have to kill you.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 5:10:52 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

I am unable to understand why Americans are whinging over the free speech issue in this instance

Name one Canadian that has been denied entry to the US because of a spoken word ...that is what we are talking about Canada and the US.

And no one is whining...as far as I can tell they are all agreeing with Canada's decision...some are just pointing out some minor hypocrisy even if they do agree.

Butch

Yeah I agree with you and DC. Citing minimal infractions (apparently resolved subsequently) to turn him away is hypocritical since it was clearly to stop him speaking but at the same time Canada have every right to turn him away, and I can well understand them not wanting the grief and major security issues that his presence might attract.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 8:56:12 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~FR

As far as the reason for denial...

A spokeswoman for U.S. pastor Terry Jones said Thursday that Canada has denied entry to the preacher, whose congregation held a Quran burning in March 2011 that triggered deadly protests in Afghanistan.

Stephanie Sapp said fellow pastor and her husband Wayne Sapp, along with Jones, were turned back at the Michigan-Ontario border after being detained for several hours. Jones, who leads Florida's tiny Dove World Outreach Center, and Wayne Sapp, were scheduled to attend Freedom Showdown, an inter-faith debate Thursday evening outside the Ontario Legislature.

Stephanie Sapp said Jones was denied entry because of a fine he got in Germany almost 20 years ago for using the title "doctor" there (he had received an honorary doctorate in theology from a Californian university in 1993). Also, both men had been charged with breaching the peace at a planned rally in Detroit last year.

The spokeswoman told The Associated Press that Jones had paid the German fine at that time and won his appeal to the German government for the right to use the title "doctor." She said border officials told Jones the Canadian government requires documentation of the whole case to be brought to a Canadian Consulate in America in order for them to consider allowing Jones into Canada again.

As for the Detroit-related charge, she said that case was overturned in a higher court on appeal.

"We consider this to be a grievous blow to freedom of speech. We hope that this is a lesson for the Canadians and the Americans for us to stand up, unite together, and protect our freedom of speech," said Jones in a statement.

That seems to be the official reason, because of his record. Shouldnt it be on him to prove these things and not another countries responsibility to prove his protests of innocence?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 9:01:46 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
That seems to be the official reason, because of his record. Shouldnt it be on him to prove these things and not another countries responsibility to prove his protests of innocence?

The reasons are dubious because their anti-Islamic signage was taken from them, and they were repeatedly asked if they were bringing in copies of Innocence of Muslims into Canada.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 9:07:34 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
That seems to be the official reason, because of his record. Shouldnt it be on him to prove these things and not another countries responsibility to prove his protests of innocence?

The reasons are dubious because their anti-Islamic signage was taken from them, and they were repeatedly asked if they were bringing in copies of Innocence of Muslims into Canada.


That is by their own telling. They are not beneath lying to attempt to get the sympathy going.

Do I doubt they were taken or asked? no. But I also believe the version of what she said was their reason. They had a valid reason. Jones should not have assumed with a record that he would just get automatic acceptance, especially after being denied entrace to Germany not too long ago.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 10:51:06 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		hmmm did I see anything about speech... can you name a Canadian citizen who was denied entry because of something they said?... I mean could be I just have not heard of it.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 10:57:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		This wasnt over just something they said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stephanie Sapp said Jones was denied entry because of a fine he got in Germany almost 20 years ago for using the title "doctor" there (he had received an honorary doctorate in theology from a Californian university in 1993). Also, both men had been charged with breaching the peace at a planned rally in Detroit last year.

The spokeswoman told The Associated Press that Jones had paid the German fine at that time and won his appeal to the German government for the right to use the title "doctor." She said border officials told Jones the Canadian government requires documentation of the whole case to be brought to a Canadian Consulate in America in order for them to consider allowing Jones into Canada again.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/14/2012 10:58:46 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 11:00:34 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I am certainly not going to argue over something I agree with... It is good to see the Canadians get off their high horses now and then and join us bigoted cowboys...and cowgirls.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 11:06:07 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol...

Are the laws bigoted?

Or are they bigoted because you dont agree with their laws?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 11:24:16 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Not at all...just when they are purposely misused.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Denied entry .... wahhhh - 10/14/2012 11:37:15 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline 		In other words 'Doc' was refused entry not on speech grounds but on past legal dismenors. For which Cannucks get refused entry to the USA all the time (often enough that there are a host of legal websites touting for business trying to overturn such decisions).

Was that a pretext for the Canadians to avoid having the objectionable preacher on their turf? Yes. But hey. Save their tax payers a fortune in having to protect the idiot and police his events so I wouldnt object any more than I did my own Government refusing him entry to speak to the EDL puppets.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 60
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