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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 8:28:45 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

quote:

And would you protect the guilty party at the expense of the victim?

Absolutely. It is better to live at risk than live under a safe dictatorship...even if that is a dictatorship of the mob.

When I was a kid, the ACLU defended the American Nazi Party's right to march down the street in Skokie, Illinois (a predominantly Jewish town, at the time). Why? Because we have freedom of speech to protect the most vile messages, not to protect the messages everybody agrees with. The Founders were very clear about this; Paine was huge influence on the Revolution, and convincing people that their right were being trampled...but what he wrote was treason at the time.

Nowadays, the ACLU goes into schools and tells children to be careful what they say.

I can think of nothing more fucked up.

Oh, wait, yes, I can-- passing laws to codify that very notion...that horrifying, ugly, despicable notion. That you can hinder my words because someone might be offended by them.

You know what? Free people should be offended. Constantly. We should have to challenge our beliefs and fundamental ideas every single week, to ensure that we believe them for the right reasons...not just because they were handed down by our parents, or because they're approved by a government board, or because "everyone else thinks that."

No. Fuck, no.

I have lived through Mrs. Gore trying to keep me from listening to certain music. Fuck her. I have lived through dipshits trying to keep Mark Twain, Toni Morrison, and textbooks with evolution out of my hands. Fuck them. I haved lived through Michael Powell trying to control what I see on cable and satellite and the Internet (he already got to decide what I would watch via broadcast TV). Fuck him. I have lived through people protesting Mapplethorpe's photos. Fuck them. I have lived through federal prosecutors trying to prevent me from getting porn through the mail (hint: this was LAST YEAR, not in the 1970s). Fuck them. Fuck community standards and the Miller Test, and the very notion that any image can be obscene (the only obscene image I can think of is that of a dead child-- and I have never heard of a prosecution based on that).

Tell me that taking away my freedom can ensure kids won't kill themselves. Tell me it will save one kid. Tell me it will save a dozen. Tell me it will save a hundred.

How many lives are my freedoms worth?

Perhaps you have not calculated things in these terms. When I took an oath swearing to protect your freedoms with my life, I thought long and hard about it. Yes, I did.

QFT

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 8:44:48 PM

hausboy

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FR:

Like others who have posted on this list, I started dealing with bullies from K-12. I handled it pretty well in elementary, but once I got to middle school, it became much more intense. There was a lot of physical abuse--esp. in the locker rooms--even back then, my school had a gang problem, and with the mix of inner city kids and suburban kids--I lived right on the city line, so I didn't really fit in with either--I took physical abuse from the gangs--and vicious emotional abuse from the rich kids from the burbs. Words don't hurt? bullshit.

in high school, the abuse came from all sides. a normal school day for me, starting from the first day of school my freshman year until my last day at graduation, was filled with physical and emotional abuse. I was physically beaten, spit on, kicked, tripped, my property vandalized, my parent's car vandalized (repeatedly)--every single day, I had people telling me I was ugly, a freak, etc. and I should kill myself....which I almost did at 16. I went to the administration of the school--this was before bullying laws--my parents came to the school with me. At the time, public school would not move a kid unless they were the behavior problem.

The school blamed me: they said that if I looked like the other kids...acted like my gender was supposed to act...and didn't listen to/dress like heavy metal (it was the 80's--very preppie was "in") that maybe I'd fit in more and they wouldn't bully me. The only way I got through high school: I befriended some of the teachers, and they agreed to look after me. I had "routes" that I would take thru the hallways to pass by certain teachers, and in the lunchroom, they stayed close. I'll never forget when food went sailing over my head and hit the wall next to one of the teachers--she asked me how often that happens: when I told her every day, she took it upon herself and some of her colleagues to help me.

The words were just as vicious. When you tell a kid that they are worthless trash, day and day out, at some point, they begin to believe it. Words do hurt. Physical scars go away--emotional scars run much deeper. Every day I see damaged kids who grow up in homes with abusive parents--they fill the waiting room. It's fucking tragic.

Cyber bullying is particularly horrible-- back when I was in school....the bullying started at the bus stop and ended when I ran home. With cyber bullying, the bullying is 24/7. They text....and facebook....it never stops. The other difference? It used to be that you could be bullied and a few people might see it, hear about it etc. With cyber bullying, thanks to facebook and youtube, the entire world can "share" and witness your humiliation and embarrassment. That is completely overwhelming to very sensitive adolescents, who may feel as though their life is now ruined.

I've given testimony to the State Board of Education on the topic of bullying. I serve on a special task force on school safety and security--and I can tell you that what I had to endure would not be tolerated today. Bullying still happens, but the schools are much more responsive than they were when I was a student.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 8:50:05 PM

kitkat105

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Thanks for contributing hausboy.

Could be anecdotal but I find that people who say bullying isn't a problem... are usually bullies themselves.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 9:20:51 PM

DaddySatyr

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I was bullied for a little while too. Know what I did? I wiped the sand out of my vagina and popped one of the mother fuckers in his mush. Job done.

We're teaching our kids to be spineless victims. Woe be tide us.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 9:35:50 PM

kitkat105

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Well I'm happy that you only had 1 person to "pop in the mush."

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 9:41:47 PM

DaddySatyr

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Let me give you some Reading Comprehension 101 ...

" ... popped one of the ..." I only had to pop one because once I did, people realized I wasn't going to tolerate their bullshit. It was a magic elixir (and I even got my ass whooped because I picked the biggest guy).

Back before the pussification of America, that was the advice fathers used to give their sons and it worked. Instead, now, we have to worry about who's gonna get their little feelers hurt. Ya know, There's lots of things I find offensive; one of them being the thought process that turns us all into retiring wallflowers. I guess you're bullying me into not standing up for myself?

Sorry. Your argument is weak. I think it's the direct result of thirty years of "kinder gentler" victim training.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 10/15/2012 9:43:03 PM >

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 9:58:45 PM

saltlakeprincess

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There was a very unattractive boy who committed suicide after being bullied and this girl got more attent than he did. I hope schools press on for anti bullying programs.. The internet brings awareness but the teachers, parents and kids need to step it up.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 10:19:45 PM

descrite

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haus, let me see if I understand what you're saying: the government administrators responsible for your safety failed to provide even basic physical protection. In response to this, you would now like to give them control over what I write and say.

This makes sense to you?

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 10:26:40 PM

descrite

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quote:

Could be anecdotal but I find that people who say bullying isn't a problem... are usually bullies themselves.

Could be anecdotal, but I find that people who make passive-aggressive posts on the interwebs...are usually passive-aggressive themselves.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 2:45:32 AM

BoundSlave4Life

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I stand corrected. The person that ruined her life was a pedophile who was blackmailing her.

http://www.vice.com/en_au/read/a-jailbait-loving-perv-destroyed-amanda-todds-life

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 5:28:12 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

Suicide is one of the top dramatic stunts.

Have you ever seriously considered suicide?

quote:

The media circus that is happening now is exactly why.

Actually, as far as I can tell, an adult guy stalking her since she was 12 is exactly why.

quote:

Her school system is ill-equipped to handle bullying because, frankly, nobody wants to deal with shit.

quote:

But really, you should be learning to talk to your teens. It's important. They can't raise themselves.

Agreed on these points.

quote:

Anti-bullying laws won't help when what we really need are provisions that teach everyone to take consequences seriously.

Agreed up to that point.

quote:

laws that made them culpable if children in their charge committed crimes.

And agree with this part, which I think is the more relevant one. Having suicide be a crime is nonsensical, IMO.

When some kid does messed up shit, the courts shouldn't be calling for the kid to be tried as an adult, but rather to trial the adults.

IWYW,
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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 5:40:44 AM

SpaceSpank

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Descrite,

There is a great deal of difference between someone expressing unfavorable ideas that someone may not like and someone targeting a specific individual to bully them. Your example of the Nazi party or even the KKK having the right to peacefully assemble is one that should be defended provided they are not actually breaking any laws. However, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to burn crosses on the lawn of a local family or beat minorities. The devil is in the details as it were. You're using examples that have nothing to do with each other. Bullies aren't expressing their right to free speech, they aren't expressing a political view or a societal statement, they aren't trying to do anything except go after one or more people with the sole and express intent of harming them in some way (and MAYBE trying to get something out of them IE: money, sex, photos, etc).

This has nothing to do with "pussification", in cases where you can fight back and deal with it I agree you absolutely should. But what happens when you cannot? If you don't know who it is that's attacking you? If you had a just 1 kid that beat you up every single day, you could possibly get better/stronger and beat them up, what if they brought friends? Making sure you were never able to fight back with any success?

There is still this fundamental issue you seem to have with being unable to see that there are situations where fighting back either doesn't work, or isn't even possible. Your only recourse is to get help from someone else. The parents and school SHOULD be the first line of defense, but when it comes to cases where it involves rather convoluted online/non physical things the available resources right now are inadequate. The laws are antiquated, poorly worded, and in some cases non existent at all. No one here has argued for a gestapo nanny state, only that there should be laws updated to reflect the reality that did not exist even 20 years ago, let alone when many of these laws were written.

Just because "Something" exists that could potentially be twisted to fit the situation with one persons interpretation of a current law does not mean it is good enough. If that were true we could simply have stuck with the old adage of "an eye for an eye", or the original laws from our days as a colony, after all, with a creative enough interpretation any crime can be fit into a very small set of laws.

The problem with that is that you can then argue endlessly about those laws. Either to get a case thrown out completely by successfully arguing that the interpretation the prosecution is using is invalid... or they can go the opposite direction, and make a lesser crime more serious by changing their interpretation. When things are broad and vague that's exactly what happens.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 6:25:10 AM

culareD

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Haus...thank YOU for sharing...I am so sorry you had to endure this.

DESCRITE...I really don't like you at all...

I am the biggest defender of freedom of speech, BUT you don't belong on this forum.

Shame on you...!

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 6:44:03 AM

culareD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: culareD

OP ~ This is a wonderful topic, and MOST of the comments have been spot on.

You and I share a VERY similar time growing up...I get it.

One of my peeps (also red-headed, freckled, PLUS autism) was extremely bullied to the point of desperation...He tried to take his life. I actually caught him in the kitchen with a knife.

This was definitely a tough time in our house, as I completely understood where he was coming from. It was then that I was thankful for my experiences, as I was able to (with the help of professionals) help him navigate through a terrible time.

Just as it could have been me that ended my life, so could it have been him ending his...

Depression is real.
Bullying happens in all ages, races, colors, creeds and economic classes.
Kids (not all, but many) can and will be mean.
Parents have to be aware, but can't always as they are not superhuman.
School administrators etc...don't always get it right either.
Bullying is very serious.

Thanks for the thread...

After breathing...I went back and reread the OP...I still believe this is a great topic, BUT I would not place all of the blame on AT. The video she posted on YOU TUBE was there for 5 WEEKS before she took her life. I believe her parents/counselors were trying to do all they could, but I also believe that if one wants to take their life, ultimately they will. Remember also that she had two previous attempts in taking her life...

She made some terrible choices, and there were consequences. Still, no one deserves to endure what she went through, and none of those children taunting her had the right to say she should die.

At the end of the day she was provoked to her choice, and others knew that she was not well and in her right mind.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 3:19:28 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I was bullied for a little while too. Know what I did? I wiped the sand out of my vagina and popped one of the mother fuckers in his mush. Job done.

While this was sufficient back when I was in school (and indeed, I had the guy wet himself while cowering behind one of the teachers), it is not necessarily sufficient now. As was pointed out by Hausboy, the shame, humiliation and social isolation aspects are likely to be the most relevant to an adolescent, due to that being the phase in their lives when they are transitioning to a social identity driven phase of life; the implication being that the omnipresent and intrusive nature of modern social media makes everything bigger and more persistent.

And, of course, there is a difference in degrees between teasing, bullying, harassment and stalking, as well as a difference in nature between the former, the latter three, and mobbing (with which I have some experience). No amount of popping anyone is going to get rid of mobbing. It primarily affects adults, who are equally helpless to do anything about it, but can also affect children. That one may well be sufficient to cause suicide in an otherwise resillient child. Indeed, it has caused resillient, successful adults to commit suicide.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 7:11:43 PM

TheBanshee

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I'm going to get slammed here but my belief is that suicide is the most shameful act and the biggest FUCK YOU to anyone that ever gave a damn about you. Suicide is usually intended to punish others.

If you don't care enough about your own life, I don't care either. I will not honor your memory.

I have a friend who's child committed suicide. Her boyfriend broke up with her. She was 17. In five years she probably wouldn't have remembered the boy's name if she wasn't so impulsive to end it all. Her mother, my friend, will never be the same. Oh, and the boyfriend who she found out was "cheating", she killed herself in front of him. Good luck to him for having a healthy romance in the future cause he's now totally F*d up.

Something is really wrong with people who commit suicide and that usually has to be resolved internally not externally.

We should concentrate on giving kids (and even adults) coping strategies rather than trying to control everyone around them and get them to be so politically correct and we've become so generic we can't have some honest discourse. This isn't to say we can't appeal to kids to be nicer to each other - but there are some people who just aren't going to like some other people.

If you kill yourself, it is your doing, not the bully. Some people internalize EVERYTHING and some people can let things roll off them. Adolescence I swear is a form or psychosis at times and if you've ever had a teenaged daughter you are probably aware of this fact all too well when she has a melt down because you bought the wrong shampoo. I realize school can suck and you can mess up and there are mean girls and it can truly be awful.

I really believe we are working at the wrong end of this problem. Coping with adversity is the better choice.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 7:17:36 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

I'm going to get slammed here but my belief is that suicide is the most shameful act and the biggest FUCK YOU to anyone that ever gave a damn about you.

That's okay. There are people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old, too.

IWYW,
— Aswad.
(Edited cuz peolpe aren't people.)

< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/16/2012 7:18:51 PM >

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 7:34:34 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

I'm going to get slammed here but my belief is that suicide is the most shameful act and the biggest FUCK YOU to anyone that ever gave a damn about you. Suicide is usually intended to punish others.

As someone who came very close to killing myself, I can tell you, suicide has absolutely nothing to do with you, friends, family, or anyone else. The internal pain is so overwhelming, nobody and nothing exists in our own hemisphere. Suicide is a desperate act of hopelessness, when no other solution is fathomable.

While totally painful to those left behind, it really isn't about you (figuratively). At all.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 8:12:08 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

I'm going to get slammed here...

I try not to be the slamming type, but a few thoughts/questions do arise.

quote:

my belief is that suicide is the most shameful act

That's a pretty strong superlative when you consider what other horrors our species can achieve. Is suicide really worse than murder? Than rape? Than child molestation? Is it truly more vile than enslaving or wiping out whole peoples?

quote:

the biggest FUCK YOU to anyone that ever gave a damn about you.

I totally get the heartache that lies in a suicide's wake. In my own battles with ferocious, get-hospitalized-for-it depression, the image of my sister explaining my death to her daughters has been a powerful deterrent to self-harm. So has the mental picture of my parents' faces at the funeral. And yet . . . there are times that I can know all this and still find myself craving release from pain with all my being. It's odd: I was thinking about this earlier today. You know how a diabetic's cells can become insulin-resistant? Well, I think there's a part of me that's love-resistant. I know it's there on every side, but somehow it can't break through the thick membrane of depression.

quote:

Suicide is usually intended to punish others.

Here I have to ask the question with which I've irked generations of CM posters: How do we know this? If I'm remembering my reading correctly, only about a quarter of all suicides leave notes.

quote:

I have a friend who's child committed suicide. Her boyfriend broke up with her. She was 17. In five years she probably wouldn't have remembered the boy's name if she wasn't so impulsive to end it all. Her mother, my friend, will never be the same. Oh, and the boyfriend who she found out was "cheating", she killed herself in front of him. Good luck to him for having a healthy romance in the future cause he's now totally F*d up.

Horrifying melodrama, I agree. But I'd be wary using of it as the lens for viewing every suicide. To adapt Tolstoy, each suicide is wretched in his or her own way.

quote:

Something is really wrong with people who commit suicide and that usually has to be resolved internally not externally.

Yes, something is definitely wrong. But I suspect internal and external factors are more of a tandem than an either/or. A few years ago, brutal depression led to my taking medical leave. My spirits lifted considerably for the leave period, but then crashed as soon as I returned to my toxic work situation.

quote:

We should concentrate on giving kids (and even adults) coping strategies rather than trying to control everyone around them.

Coping skills are vital (an adjective I use carefully) indeed. One of the best examples of that comes from the boxing lessons in The Bells of St. Mary's. Yet I also think it's important for schools to make their campuses as bullying-free as possible. That's tricky, I know, given that I also believe in free speech.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/16/2012 8:13:25 PM

descrite

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quote:

There is a great deal of difference between someone expressing unfavorable ideas that someone may not like and someone targeting a specific individual to bully them.

Okay. Tell me what that difference is.

I targeted the Pope, in my earlier statement, to bully him. Tell me how it's in any way different from "expressing unfavorable ideas that someone may not like."

quote:

Your example of the Nazi party or even the KKK having the right to peacefully assemble is one that should be defended provided they are not actually breaking any laws. However, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to burn crosses on the lawn of a local family or beat minorities.

Absolutely agreed. Both those latter examples are physical force. I have stated my unequivocal stance against the initiation of force since this thread began. Tell me how you and I disagree, not how we agree.

I will repeat, for clarity, because you seem to misunderstand: I have no problem with laws against the initiation of fraud or force. I have a horrible fear and dread of laws against any form of communication.