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RE: Bullying? - 10/17/2012 11:05:20 AM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using FR.

Another thing I remember from my brief career in the insurance biz.......in the state of Iowa, most life insurance policies will not pay if the death is ruled suicide. Most health insurance policies will not pay either.


Certain states now only disallow life insurance from paying out for suicide for a time period (like one year), and then require payment, due to suicide now recognized as being the result of an illness.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/17/2012 1:52:11 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

and don't date anyone with suicidal tendencies, yea.

But all he wanted was a Pepsi

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RE: Bullying? - 10/17/2012 3:37:19 PM   
Alecta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
But all he wanted was a Pepsi



I'm afraid I don't get the reference...

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RE: Bullying? - 10/17/2012 5:25:25 PM   
Kana


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RE: Bullying? - 10/17/2012 7:09:52 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitkat105

Well I'm happy that you only had 1 person to "pop in the mush."




no shit, kitkat!
Try fighting back when it's 5 on 1. I've always been the smallest kid in the class, but I've also always been scrappy. I fought back as much as I could--my parents taught me to fight back and always supported me when I did.

But you want to talk "pussification" Michael? Bullies are fucking pussies--not the kids they pick on. Bullies who don't have the fucking balls to take someone on one on one--they bring 5 or 6 friends with them....or they strike when your back is turned.

My brother's kid is a special needs kid with developmental disabilities--and the little guy has our genes--he's the smallest kid in class. My brother and his wife and working closely with the school but the kid is getting bullied from day one. Is it his fault? my brother's? No. It's the kids who haven't been taught proper values in their own families.

Bully parents raise bully kids. They don't deserve to lick the corn out of my shit.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/17/2012 10:40:30 PM   
descrite


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quote:

The charge goes on your record. There is a hefty fine involved, which your next of kin will bear. If you were a minor, [eta: then your] parents or legal guardian is charged with neglect. If you were incited to it (and this has to be proven beyond a doubt), the people who pushed you to it are charged with some form of accessory to murder depending on the severity of their involvement. If your surviving family apply for positions that requires extended background checks, it will come up and can be held against them.


That's totally not the case in America. It's simply the sole law where you can be prosecuted only if you're not successful.


KANA-- I ain't gonna be no repo man. No way.

Life insurance will usually pay up for suicide, as long as the policy is not very recent. And they will even pay then, in many cases. It's just not a statistically significant event (buying the policy, then offing yourself). Of those who suicide with insurance, most are middle-aged white men, who already had it before the ideations, and of those who didn't (teens and the like), they aren't going to go buy some before doing the deed.

quote:

Defining the borders in a manner that can be mechanistically applied may be difficult, but do you find it difficult to see a substantial and clear difference in the natures of the three contrived examples above?



Yes. I find it very, very difficult to find a substantial and clear difference. I see a very arbitrary semantic, contextual, and perspective difference-- I see no clear and substantial difference.

Let me ask again, because maybe you missed the question: I am purposefully, knowingly, and with full intent, verbally attacking the man specifically to belittle him and make him feel bad. Should I go to jail for this?





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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 12:35:10 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

I see no clear and substantial difference.


You could've left it at this admission.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 12:40:24 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
But you want to talk "pussification" Michael? Bullies are fucking pussies--not the kids they pick on. Bullies who don't have the fucking balls to take someone on one on one--they bring 5 or 6 friends with them....or they strike when your back is turned.


You missed my point but having interected with you, before, I doubt it was accidental. I was NOT calling children who are bullied "pussies" but, crack on, mate. If it makes you feel better.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 12:58:14 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

When my daughter was in the fifth grade - she had just entered a new school. There were a group of girls that started bullying her - she came home from school one day and said one of these girls had thrown a sandwich at her.

I went to the school the next morning and asked to speak with the principal. He acted like it was no big deal - and had the audacity to tell me "thats just the way kids act".
At that point, I told him how this adult parent was going to act. I told him that if he didnt take care of the situation, that I wouldnt be coming in next time to be speaking with him. The next time, he would be speaking with my lawyer.

Guess what? - he dealt with the situation.


Bingo. I was in a similar position with my youngest boy, and had an almost identical conversation with the head teacher.

quote:


The next year, I put my daughter in private school.
Which is what I should of done in the first place.

I took responsibility for my child.


While I take my hat of to you for doing what you felt was the right thing to do, my choice was different though. I didn't take my son out of the school, I worked with my son to help him acquire the tools he needed to deal with bullies. I'm not suggesting that you didn't do similar, but I did feel that removing him from the school could potentially create more long term problems for him.



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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 1:08:35 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

I'm going to get slammed here but my belief is that suicide is the most shameful act and the biggest FUCK YOU to anyone that ever gave a damn about you.


Yes, there's a strong argument that suicide is one of the most selfish things that a person can do.
quote:


Suicide is usually intended to punish others.


I have to challenge you on this, because I think it's bullshit.

I think that suicide is mostly intended to self-punish, but I'm not enough of a jackass to claim that to be a fact.

Do you have any stats to back up the claim that "suicide is usually intended to punish others?"

quote:



If you don't care enough about your own life, I don't care either. I will not honor your memory.


I sincerely hope that nobody truly dear to you ever takes their life, but if such a tragic thing were to happen I'd bet that you would reassess this position.

quote:


I have a friend who's child committed suicide. Her boyfriend broke up with her. She was 17. In five years she probably wouldn't have remembered the boy's name if she wasn't so impulsive to end it all. Her mother, my friend, will never be the same. Oh, and the boyfriend who she found out was "cheating", she killed herself in front of him. Good luck to him for having a healthy romance in the future cause he's now totally F*d up.


Yep, that's a shocking example. I wonder what must have been going through her mind? I wonder how much pain she would have had to be in? It's sad that she wasn't equipped to deal with it, isn't it?

quote:


Something is really wrong with people who commit suicide and that usually has to be resolved internally not externally.

We should concentrate on giving kids (and even adults) coping strategies rather than trying to control everyone around them and get them to be so politically correct and we've become so generic we can't have some honest discourse. This isn't to say we can't appeal to kids to be nicer to each other - but there are some people who just aren't going to like some other people.


I really agree with a lot of this. But it really is only half the story.

What about the bullies? Could you not also say "something is really wrong with people who have to bully others in order to establish their own sense of self-esteem"?



quote:



If you kill yourself, it is your doing, not the bully.


I think this is very simplistic. You have to be willing to accept that there's often a reason for someone committing suicide? You have to be willing to accept that bullying can harm a person's self worth?

quote:



Some people internalize EVERYTHING and some people can let things roll off them. Adolescence I swear is a form or psychosis at times and if you've ever had a teenaged daughter you are probably aware of this fact all too well when she has a melt down because you bought the wrong shampoo. I realize school can suck and you can mess up and there are mean girls and it can truly be awful.

I really believe we are working at the wrong end of this problem. Coping with adversity is the better choice.




I think that dealing with both is the even better choice.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 1:25:21 AM   
crazyml


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Status: offline 		Hey,

So I have to admit that my first reaction to your op was anger.

But, rather than responding straight away, I read the remainder of the thread.

I'm still a little bit sad that you could come to this conclusion, but given your own life experiences, and the way you've fought to overcome the challenges and adversity that life has thrown at you, I can kind of understand how you might come to the position that you have.

Compassion isn't about measuring everyone by your own unique experiences, gifts or traits. Compassion is about measuring people by their unique experiences, gifts and traits.

Some young teens are robust. Some young teens respond to challenges by striving. Some are happy to go their own way, and others need affirmation from others.

We're talking about a 13 year old. To expect her to make the right choices, to hold her responsible for the horrible situation she felt herself to be in, is just asking way to much.

I've got two fine boys, and one of them is properly robust. The first time a bigger boy tried to bully him he took the bully on. The other is much more sensitive, and the first time a bigger boy tried to bully him he internalised it, and stopped eating.

He was ten years old.

If my partner and I hadn't spotted it and taken action, he could well have harmed himself. I cannot imagine how I would have felt. But I can promise you, I wouldn't have "blamed" him.

And the thing is.... twelve months on, he's become a confident, happy, assertive boy. There was no therapy (we're not much of a "therapy culture" in the UK), but there was a lot of support, I worked (very assertively) with the school and I worked with him.

If he had done something awful... and I well up at the very thought... I would not have blamed him. I would have blamed the bullies, the school, but most of all I would have blamed myself.



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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 5:26:30 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

quote:

Defining the borders in a manner that can be mechanistically applied may be difficult, but do you find it difficult to see a substantial and clear difference in the natures of the three contrived examples above?



Yes. I find it very, very difficult to find a substantial and clear difference. I see a very arbitrary semantic, contextual, and perspective difference-- I see no clear and substantial difference.

Let me ask again, because maybe you missed the question: I am purposefully, knowingly, and with full intent, verbally attacking the man specifically to belittle him and make him feel bad. Should I go to jail for this?


I suppose it would depend on the circumstances of the event. In the case of the Pope, if you tried to verbally attack him, it probably be from afar, since you wouldn't be able to get near the man without his security stopping you. It might be similar with sports fans who yell and taunt the players. They're in a crowd, with their voices drowned out by thousands.

But if someone is just minding his own business, quietly reading a book in a public park, and 5 or 6 guys corner him, verbally attack him, and generally harassing him and preventing him from exercising his rights, then there probably should be something in the law to prohibit that kind of thing. If someone asks to be left alone and tries to walk away, then I think it should be their right to do so without any further harassment. If they keep following and harassing him, then I would say that they would be violating that person's rights.

I can see yelling at the Pope or some other public figure who holds power and influence over society. Some might feel they have just cause to have a grudge against the Pope.

----

On the subject of bullying, this thread kind of reminds me of how things were back in my school days. I remember the little cliques and social hierarchies - along with the various tough kids, borderline psychos would beat the crap out of you if you even looked at them the wrong way. For me, elementary school was the worst, since you're stuck in the same room with the same bunch of kids day after day. I was the "new kid," since we moved around a lot when I was younger. It got better in junior high, since we changed classrooms every 45 minutes, and there were also different kids who came from different elementary schools. So, the pool got larger and that irritating bunch from elementary school soon faded into the crowd.

I did get into a few fights in junior high and held my own. I wouldn't really call them episodes of bullying, as the fault was probably mutual - even though at the time, I claimed that the other guy started it.

We moved to another state 2500 miles away just before I started high school, so I was the new kid again. Fortunately, it seemed that most of the student body was stoned much of the time, so nobody felt like bullying anybody. Those who were actually there to study and learn could do so without much harassment. Sure, there were verbal attacks, but they usually ended there without any actual fight. The penalties for fighting at my high school were more severe than at my other school, so students had to keep their cool or risk suspension or expulsion.

I was really glad when I finally graduated and it was all over. Once you're an adult and free to make your own choices, it's much better than to be a kid, stuck in a crappy school with no place to go (and parents who probably don't care).





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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 5:51:01 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite
Let me ask again, because maybe you missed the question: I am purposefully, knowingly, and with full intent, verbally attacking the man specifically to belittle him and make him feel bad. Should I go to jail for this?


Maybe you should if the Pope was 13 and your behavior was repeated enough times.

In answer to the question:

What makes bullying different from saying (or doing?) things that make someone feel bad?

The depth of the emotional reaction provoked, the fitness of the person being provoked, and the number of times they are provoked.

ETA: Also, whether you are aware of how your behavior has affected them, your own level of mental fitness, and the degree of real power you hold over them (if you were the Pope's employer, for example).

ETA: I forgot another one- how many of you there are provoking the one person.

Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 10/18/2012 6:16:46 AM >

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 6:53:52 AM   
descrite


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quote:

The depth of the emotional reaction provoked, the fitness of the person being provoked, and the number of times they are provoked.


So, again, it's arbitrary and ambiguous; there will be no clear standard, and any words could be potentially be seen as "illegal," depending on who hears/reads them.

Should kids view porn? Rated R movies? Rated NC-17 movies? Rated X movies? When I write or say something, will the government decide who gets to read it? If I write something for an adult audience, and a kid reads it, and is upset, according to your explanation, I'm responsible for the harm to the kid.

Can you understand why that's not a good standard to use in a free society...especially since it's not a standard?

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 7:31:15 AM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

My brother's kid is a special needs kid with developmental disabilities--and the little guy has our genes--he's the smallest kid in class. My brother and his wife and working closely with the school but the kid is getting bullied from day one. Is it his fault? my brother's? No. It's the kids who haven't been taught proper values in their own families.

Bully parents raise bully kids. They don't deserve to lick the corn out of my shit.


You bet, Hausboy.

My 10 yo child has Asberger's and does not have the social skills nor the developmental ability to fight back, let alone recognize in verbal bullying situations that he's being bullied (those incidents were witnessed by adults and reported, thank goodness).

Since August, he's been physically and verbally bullied in 4 separate incidents. Two of the bullies' parents subsequently claimed that their kids are being unfairly punished by the school and that there is no way their kids would do that kind of thing. One of the other bullies has admitted he targeted my son knowing he has disabilities and intended to get other kids to help "because it was fun".

So yeah, some folks can have an ongoing abstract discussion about bullying and how rights get trampled and how the problem is simple to solve if you just fight back (assuming you have the skills to do that). Meanwhile, there's the harsh reality of trying to keep an actual child physically and emotionally safe from vicious peers and their uncaring parents. (Fortunately, getting lots of support from school administration and strengthened bullying laws in CT.)

Something worth viewing:
http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/16/anti-bullying-ad-sends-gut-wrenching-message-to-a-different-audience-adults/?hpt=us_c2 (see the video on that page).

And an article about bullying and autistic kids:
http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/05/why-autistic-kids-make-easy-targets-for-school-bullies/


Edited to fix a missing word.

< Message edited by DomMeinCT -- 10/18/2012 7:32:31 AM >

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 9:33:01 AM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		People commit suicide because the pain is no longer something they can deal with, be it physical pain or emotional pain. People see it as selfish. Master feels this way also but I've tried to explain it to him but I still don't think he can accept it. When I had thought about suicide it was because my depression was so bad that it hurt more than dying. Dying would finally take the pain away. You can only deal with pain for so long until it becomes too much. Your body can no longer handle it. For me the thought of it was anything but selfish. For me it was a way to help those close to me. They would no longer have to deal with my problems and I felt they were better off without me. I would no longer have them being exhausted with my depression. They no longer had to listen to my excuses for not doing things, always sleeping, being in a black hole.

As of right now, my depression isn't as bad as it used to be but will always be a part of me. It's a never ending illness. I have just had to learn to pull myself out of the black hole.

Master still disagrees though and would make sure he would punish my ghost lol.


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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 10:42:52 AM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite
So, again, it's arbitrary and ambiguous; there will be no clear standard, and any words could be potentially be seen as "illegal," depending on who hears/reads them.


No, any words could potentially be seen as bullying, depending on who hears/reads them. Whether those words/behavior is seen as illegal depends on whether the courts see them that way. Do you also see that as arbitrary and ambiguous?

quote:

Can you understand why that's not a good standard to use in a free society...especially since it's not a standard?


I think with most laws it's very difficult to write a standard that's completely unambiguous and still useful. For example, take the 2nd Amendment.

Pam


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 10/18/2012 10:49:56 AM >

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 11:05:30 AM   
Jaquin


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Status: offline 		I agree lw, genetically speaking my family sucks for depression. Most, if not all and the rest are just better at coping/hiding, have been diagnosed with clinical depression and are on/will be on medication for it - I am the latest case of this.

This all pervasive, long lasting, weight that pushes you down for so long, it is wearisome. I actually had a good day on Tuesday and I was happy, rather then depressed or neutral which are my normal moods; and my mother practically wept for joy that for at least one day she didn't have to worry about me. It was the first good day I'd had in a long time.

People who suffer from "environmental/situational depression" feel that they understand "clinical/genetic depression" because they got over it or they were strong enough to fight it and yay good for them... but it's not the same. You will never be rid of clinical depression, for my family it's a genetically handed down abnormality that causes imbalanced chemicals in the brain. This means that - unless the brain suddenly fixes itself one day, or we get medication - we'll be inclined to be depressed a lot more often, for longer, and deeper for the rest of our lives; and worse yet our kids have a great chance of having it.

Suicidal thoughts are normal for my family, thankfully none have acted on them.

That teenagers, kids, young adults - whomever, commit suicide... I get it. I've been there laying on my bed crushed beneath this feeling of such misery that killing myself looked like a great way to stop this shit from happening to me again and stop my family having to worry about me. It is far from a selfish act, those who say/think that are doing so in ignorance of what it feels like to stand at the abyss of one's own life staring into the darkness of your mind and feeling that urge to jump.

Does everyone who commits suicide have clinical/genetic depression? No. But for some, the environmental depression lasts so long it may as well be. And in the undeveloped mind of a teenager (etc) they can't see the ways out, they can't see or build the support networks we as adults build - to them they feel ultimately alone in the dark crushed by this burden of emotions and death looks like the freedom they crave.

Is this a universal truth? No. But this is what I remember of my desire for suicide when I was a teenager, and what I know of it still now as an adult.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 11:52:48 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
People see it as selfish.

One thing I do wonder looking at this thread, is how a feeling that suicide is just plain wrong and shouldn't be allowed ties in with a general disdain for the sort of public spending that'd provide funding for kids (or adults) from straightened backgrounds to see a counsellar? Because it sounds like most of the "suicide's for whining pussies" lobby in here are coming from the badass libertarian element who'd cheerfully beat a child to death themselves rather than having facilities its parents can't afford made available to it by the taxpayer.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/18/2012 1:19:46 PM   
culareD


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Status: offline 		AMEN Moonhead!

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