RE: Bullying? (Full Version)

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descrite -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 8:18:04 PM)

Oh, also, since I seem to be taking point on controversial/unpopular ideas: I have no problem with suicide. I fully intend to commit suicide way before I am too feeble and weak and pained to be able to control my own actions and happiness. I loathe the fact that it is illegal, and that doctors like Kevorkian must choose between's their patients' wishes and their oath to relieve pain and suffering.

However, that said-- kids are dumb. It's one of the reasons they're kids: they have no sense of perspective. It's why we don't let them vote or drink or rent cars. So a kid killing themself is sad; they never got to see what life is like with a bit of control and volition.

Still, suicide has always happened. It will always happen. Trying to stop everyone from killing themselves (including kids), through the use of anything other than persuassion, marketing, shame, and information, is ridiculous, pathetic, and downright frightening.




Aswad -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 8:24:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

Okay. Tell me what that difference is.


Expression: The papal institution is such BS that it borders on sacrilege, and the handling of priests fucking altar boys makes me wonder if they whole Catholic church is an age old conspiracy to give pedophiles free access to victims.

Poopflinging: The Pope is a fuckin' moron.

Slander: Benedict XVI rapes boys for a hobby.

Defining the borders in a manner that can be mechanistically applied may be difficult, but do you find it difficult to see a substantial and clear difference in the natures of the three contrived examples above?

Starting from there, it shouldn't be hard to see the rest of the picture.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




JanahX -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 8:33:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

Oh, also, since I seem to be taking point on controversial/unpopular ideas: I have no problem with suicide. I fully intend to commit suicide way before I am too feeble and weak and pained to be able to control my own actions and happiness. I loathe the fact that it is illegal, and that doctors like Kevorkian must choose between's their patients' wishes and their oath to relieve pain and suffering.



How is suicide illegal?
Assisting someone to kill themselves is illegal - but I'd like to see the bureaucrats punish someone who has killed themselves on their own.




Alecta -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 8:43:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Have you ever seriously considered suicide?


Yes. The scarring is mostly faded though. And I speak from a place of personal experience and close knowledge of other suicide attempters when I say most of the time, the ones who are really hurting, who aren't doing it for the attention, will never say anything about it or why they are hurting.


quote:

quote:

The media circus that is happening now is exactly why.


Actually, as far as I can tell, an adult guy stalking her since she was 12 is exactly why.


You've taken this line out of context. I was referring to the generic teen's romanticism of suicide.

The story I gathered was that the stalking occurred between ages 13 to 14, that the police failed to put that case to appropriate rest and that didn't actually have anything to do with bullying, it is a criminal matter. The bullying came in when she pissed off the wrong people in school and they dug up this particular past and paraded it around, then when she slept with someone's boyfriend, the slighted girlfriend dug that up as "slut evidence" as well as threatening her physically, escalating the stigma and violence on her that led to the video and eventually her suicide.

I don't see this girl as an innocent victim, everything that has happened to her has been a consequence of her own actions, albeit going further than it strictly should have, but that's my point, that she died from grownups not taking the appropriate amounts of responsibility towards kids in their charge, including her. Not because bullying exists or that she was bullied or that stalking exists and that she was once stalked. Because the adults in her life failed to do their jobs.


ETA: I believe in the right to suicide, what I don't believe in is using suicide as an excuse to escape your own mess. If you mean to take yourself to your grave, by all means do so, but please do so with the appropriate shame and guilt knowing what you are doing and the consequences and effects it bears. And yes, it's sad that someone thought they had no choice but to kill themselves, but that doesn't absolve them from the mistakes they've made and the mess they've caused or any of the bad things they'd done in life, which is my second major issue with suicide, that suddenly when someone kills themselves we're morally obligated to forget everything bad they ever did and consider them a pure innocent victim of one thing or another.




Alecta -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 8:49:27 PM)

That's me. Suicide was illegal where I grew up, not sure if it still is. But since Descrite doesn't seem to believe I'm not from America, that probably explains the confusion.





JanahX -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 8:55:33 PM)

Okay so since its illigal - how do they punish someone who is dead?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

That's me. Suicide was illegal where I grew up, not sure if it still is. But since Descrite doesn't seem to believe I'm not from America, that probably explains the confusion.







Alecta -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 9:08:19 PM)

It doesn't directly impact you since you're dead. I suppose the idea was to impose legal and therefore "real" consequences on the action so people think twice about doing it if they cared about their family's well-being and to create a social climate of shame and guilt against committing suicide. Being dead doesn't mean they throw away your citizenship and criminal records. The charge goes on your record. There is a hefty fine involved, which your next of kin will bear. If you were a minor, [eta: then your] parents or legal guardian is charged with neglect. If you were incited to it (and this has to be proven beyond a doubt), the people who pushed you to it are charged with some form of accessory to murder depending on the severity of their involvement. If your surviving family apply for positions that requires extended background checks, it will come up and can be held against them.

[ETA: I don't know if this has been changed, I've not been back in 10 years. But this was real.]




JanahX -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 9:35:46 PM)

So moral of the story is: make sure you dot your i's and cross your t's before you blow your brains out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

It doesn't directly impact you since you're dead. I suppose the idea was to impose legal and therefore "real" consequences on the action so people think twice about doing it if they cared about their family's well-being and to create a social climate of shame and guilt against committing suicide. Being dead doesn't mean they throw away your citizenship and criminal records. The charge goes on your record. There is a hefty fine involved, which your next of kin will bear. If you were a minor, [eta: then your] parents or legal guardian is charged with neglect. If you were incited to it (and this has to be proven beyond a doubt), the people who pushed you to it are charged with some form of accessory to murder depending on the severity of their involvement. If your surviving family apply for positions that requires extended background checks, it will come up and can be held against them.

[ETA: I don't know if this has been changed, I've not been back in 10 years. But this was real.]





Alecta -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 9:42:55 PM)

and don't date anyone with suicidal tendencies, yea.




Aswad -> RE: Bullying? (10/16/2012 10:17:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

Yes. The scarring is mostly faded though. And I speak from a place of personal experience and close knowledge of other suicide attempters when I say most of the time, the ones who are really hurting, who aren't doing it for the attention, will never say anything about it or why they are hurting.


Sure, I can go with the general lines of that.

It's not how I interpreted your post, though; my apologies for misreading it.

quote:

You've taken this line out of context. I was referring to the generic teen's romanticism of suicide.


My apologies again.

quote:

but that's my point, that she died from grownups not taking the appropriate amounts of responsibility towards kids in their charge, including her. Not because bullying exists or that she was bullied or that stalking exists and that she was once stalked. Because the adults in her life failed to do their jobs.


Good point.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Moonhead -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 4:55:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Okay so since its illigal - how do they punish someone who is dead?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

That's me. Suicide was illegal where I grew up, not sure if it still is. But since Descrite doesn't seem to believe I'm not from America, that probably explains the confusion.





They can't, but surviving a suicide pact where the other participant died is legally treated as manslaughter in some quarters.




dcnovice -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 5:35:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Okay so since its illigal - how do they punish someone who is dead?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

That's me. Suicide was illegal where I grew up, not sure if it still is. But since Descrite doesn't seem to believe I'm not from America, that probably explains the confusion.


Hellfire, I believe. In more devout ages, that was more of a deterrent than it may seem today.

If memory serves, suicides were also denied Christian burial and may have had their possessions confiscated.

Years ago, I read about someone caught in the act of attempting suicide. He was arrested, charged, convicted--and, yes, executed. Can't recall any details, alas.




SinFix -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 5:49:06 AM)

It is attempting suicide that may be illegal, actually dying is obvious a non-point.




Moonhead -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 7:01:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Years ago, I read about someone caught in the act of attempting suicide. He was arrested, charged, convicted--and, yes, executed. Can't recall any details, alas.

I think that one's an urban myth, sadly.




JanahX -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 7:03:30 AM)

quote:

Years ago, I read about someone caught in the act of attempting suicide. He was arrested, charged, convicted--and, yes, executed. Can't recall any details, alas.


Yay - they got their wish.




weylinish -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 7:14:32 AM)

Suicide: Illegal only when the state can make money by offing you itself.




mussorgsky -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 7:24:34 AM)

Of course, since stealing money, spending money, and killing folks are really the only things that governments do well.




kalikshama -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 9:48:13 AM)

Loopholes

Prologue.

Ira Glass: Well, it's just like they say in Us Weekly, people in the 18th century, they're just like us. At least they are when they're not in situations like the one I'm about to describe to you. It's 1761, Austria, cue the Mozart music, which, by an act of Congress in 1974, is required in any Public Radio story like this. Mozart, please.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Ava Litzelfelnerin gets married. She's 25, moves from her parents' farm to her husband's farm 16 miles away, which back then seemed really, really far away.

Kathy Stuart: She feels like she's in a foreign country when she's moved these 16 miles to the new village. And she says things like, oh, I don't know what the local customs are here.

Ira Glass: That's Kathy Stuart, a professor of history at the University of California Davis. She says that from hundreds of pages of archived criminal testimony, we know that this was an arranged marriage, that Ava met her husband days before the wedding, and that Ava's new mother-in-law dominated the household, wouldn't even let Ava give gifts to the neighbors when she moved in. The mother-in-law gave the field hands smaller portions of food than Ava thought was right, and she wouldn't let Ava change it or take charge. Ava tells people how unhappy she is in this new life far from the life she'd known.

Kathy Stuart: She is constantly articulating to her husband, her brother, her mother that she wants to leave this world, and she can find no happiness in this world. And the only response she gets is go home and pray and work.

Ira Glass: So she decides to end her life, but there's a problem. At the time, suicide was considered a worse sin than murder. Kathy Stuart says the logic was, if you committed a murder, you could confess your sin, and if you were truly repentant, you could get yourself into Heaven. Obviously, if you kill yourself, you don't get that chance, and you are doomed to eternal damnation. And Ava did not want to go to Hell, but she thought of a loophole-- a morbid, little loophole.

Kathy Stuart: She thought, OK, wait a minute. What if I commit suicide in a way that is really slow and secret. And I can get myself to a priest on time to confess before I die, and then nobody need know that I committed suicide, and I'll get to Heaven anyway. So what she does is, she goes to a nearby town, and she goes from store to store trying to buy arsenic.

Ira Glass: She testifies later this turns out to be really, really hard. Arsenic is a controlled substance. Nobody wants to sell it to her. Finally, she makes up a story about working for a farmer who has a rodent problem, which works.

Kathy Stuart: And then she goes home and she takes the arsenic. But she takes apparently just a little bit of arsenic, the way she describes it, as much as you could get on the point of a butter knife.

Ira Glass: It's delicate, right? She wants to take enough arsenic that it'll kill her, but not so much that it'll kill her quickly. She needs time to get to a priest first to confess the sin.

Kathy Stuart: So she takes this little bit of arsenic. But apparently it was enough to make her violently ill, and for a week, every time she ate, she vomited. But it wasn't enough to make her think that she was now going to die.

Ira Glass: So she never goes to the priest. Figuring out the proper dosage, she testifies later, is just a vexing problem that she doesn't know how to solve. And she gives up that plan, which brings her to a much more disturbing plan. She decides to do something that, to us, to our modern sensibility, is so much worse than killing yourself. From our point of view, she decides to do one of the worst things a person could possibly do.

Read more: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/473/transcript




kalikshama -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 9:52:15 AM)

quote:

Oh, also, since I seem to be taking point on controversial/unpopular ideas: I have no problem with suicide. I fully intend to commit suicide way before I am too feeble and weak and pained to be able to control my own actions and happiness. I loathe the fact that it is illegal, and that doctors like Kevorkian must choose between's their patients' wishes and their oath to relieve pain and suffering.


A few weeks ago I started a thread in P&R on three MA ballot initiatives, including this:

Massachusetts "Death with Dignity" Initiative, Question 2 (2012)

According to the text of the initiative, the proposed measure would allow for a terminally ill patient to be given lethal drugs. A terminally ill patient would be defined as a patient being given six months or fewer to live. The patient requesting the medication must be mentally capable to make medical decisions while consulting their respective doctors. Patients would be required to submit their request orally twice and witnessed in writing, and the initial verbal request must be fifteen days prior to the written request and second oral request. The patient's terminal diagnosis and capability to make health care decisions must be confirmed by a second doctor.[2]

The proposed measure, according to the text, requires substantial compliance with these and other requirements. The text states: "A person who substantially complies in good faith with provisions of this chapter shall be deemed to be in compliance with this chapter."[2]

The proposed act also allows blood relatives to participate in assisting the patient to sign up for the lethal dose, providing that one of the required witnesses on the lethal dose request form not be a patient’s relative by blood, marriage or adoption.[2]

Supporters argue that the measure would give terminally ill patients dignity and control over their deaths, and would alleviate suffering.

Opponents argue that the measure is morally wrong, and that beneficiaries of terminally ill patients could abuse the provisions presented by the proposal.





LaTigresse -> RE: Bullying? (10/17/2012 10:48:12 AM)

Using FR.

Another thing I remember from my brief career in the insurance biz.......in the state of Iowa, most life insurance policies will not pay if the death is ruled suicide. Most health insurance policies will not pay either.




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