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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/18/2012 8:22:52 PM   
oregongirl


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Lookie, now THAT is funny, lol :) thanks for the humor. How do you hack your own account?

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/18/2012 8:57:03 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oregongirl

Lookie, now THAT is funny, lol :) thanks for the humor. How do you hack your own account?


That's an excellent question (and a relatively easy one).

First I go into the DOS prompt, then I do a little C:>: "here we fucking go", hit return, wait for the prompt that says "Okay...let's fuck with the most people....how many hard drives are we talking about here?"

Hit return again, answer the appropriate questions and voila....you're in, "fucking" takes place abruptly.

(in reply to oregongirl)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/18/2012 11:16:46 PM   
descrite


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quote:

While it's true you may certainly at least THINK you're protected from some things, the truth is that the majority of people lack the resources, knowledge, or even interest in being able to remove malware, let alone to be able to identify their system is infected with anything short of blatantly obvious varieties.


Whiiiiiich is exactly why AV software is useless, for users that are going to allow exceptions, anyway...which they will be forced to do, because default settings on any AV app are so prohibitive they make your broadband a waste of money.

Would you recommend wearing a condom for someone shooting heroin?

[oregongirl, I'm not picking on you, but I have to use a salient point] Space, this is a user who refers to the fact that she "caught" some cookies.

A false sense of security, burdened with an onerous control of dubious value, actually creates a worse security posture...not a better one.


Aswad...chatte's solution only works if your three classes of passwords adhere to the same constraints, site to site...more variety leads to that interference I mentioned. The differences between Apple's requirements and Amazon's requirement's and so on can really fuck up a category-based scheme, because then there's one extra variable (with one password, it's bad enough...with many, it gets geometrically ugly)...and did we consider that ecommerce site Business, or Personal? Was that one vendor Work, or Personal?

Grok me?




(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 4:37:09 AM   
SpaceSpank


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I use the default settings in MSE, it's never caused me a single issue. And cookies, while not actively harmful, still are often classified as malware, for most users if it shows up in a scan they are going to assume it's bad. They won't know the difference between a tracking a normal tracking cookie, a more annoying, yet still relatively harmless flash "cookie", a virus, adware, a trojan, and an exploit/vulnerability. All of those things will simply fall under the "is it bad?" category.

And yes, I would say a person shooting heroin should use a condom, because they could still have the sense to use clean needles, but maybe the tweaker or the filthy crack addict they are having sex with has more bugs than a landfill.
At the least they could still be having sex with someone that knows nothing about their habit.

A/V software, at the very least, will pick up on a lot of known and identified junk out there, and if you pick your product wisely and configure it right, you will never even know its there. (Auto updates, auto scans at times you have the pc on but are not using it)

Combine that with a better browser set up, (which is FAR more invasive for the average user) and better e-mail habits, and most of a users issues are gone unless they are really browsing/downloading a lot of crap from sites that are frequently exploited.

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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 5:36:00 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite


Aswad...chatte's solution only works if your three classes of passwords adhere to the same constraints, site to site...more variety leads to that interference I mentioned. The differences between Apple's requirements and Amazon's requirement's and so on can really fuck up a category-based scheme, because then there's one extra variable (with one password, it's bad enough...with many, it gets geometrically ugly)...and did we consider that ecommerce site Business, or Personal? Was that one vendor Work, or Personal?

Grok me?




Wow, you don't have much respect for my intellect, do you? Like I can't figure out an easy peasy system for the what now amounts to slight password protocol variations. It's not that hard.

You are exhibiting the same crappy control freak attitude in this thread as you did in the other one, b/c you can't stand to not be right. Do you have *any* idea how undomly that is?






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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 7:27:54 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

Whiiiiiich is exactly why AV software is useless, for users that are going to allow exceptions, anyway...which they will be forced to do, because default settings on any AV app are so prohibitive they make your broadband a waste of money.


Which antivirus programs are you referring to, here? Norton? AVG? Panda? Avast? "Default settings" vary by the software. Some do not give users the option to allow "exceptions" without being disabled (are we only talking about cookies here - what about URLs, hypertext links, Macromedia Flash, Java, generic image [.tif/.png/.gif/.jpg] display...). Presuming that the antivirus software allows for an exception, is it case by case or generalized (whitelist/blacklist)? Once those things are established, then we can look at what the user is allowing to determine efficacy.

Internet service (broadband does not exist in some areas; dial-up is still in business) does not have to be rendered useless by antivirus software. If your connectivity is affected by restrictions on sites (or components thereof) other than the routing addresses carrying to to/from your machine, the problem likely lies in outdated software components not related to your antivirus. Processing data and restricting data are not the same thing.


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There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 7:59:50 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Wow, you don't have much respect for my intellect, do you? Like I can't figure out an easy peasy system for the what now amounts to slight password protocol variations. It's not that hard.


I have found that a password of eight characters, containing both upper and lower case letters, and a number, fits almost every site's requirements. (There are a few that also require symbols.)

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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 9:21:20 AM   
oregongirl


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Wow, I really started something here, and I'm trying to follow along, but I will admit my head is spinning. I know just enough to most likely harm my computer or put myself at risk, lol.

Here's another question just to mix up the pot some more :)

I heard that using disposable emails are good to use when contacting a new website for a while to see if I would get spammed a lot and if so, I can contact that website knowing that they are the one that are sending the spam because it takes the guessing out of who is sending the spam.

Also, maybe a good idea to use when bringing a conversation from internet sites to personal email.

What you y'all think about this and if you like using them, which one is best?

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 9:48:28 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oregongirl

Wow, I really started something here, and I'm trying to follow along, but I will admit my head is spinning. I know just enough to most likely harm my computer or put myself at risk, lol.

Here's another question just to mix up the pot some more :)

I heard that using disposable emails are good to use when contacting a new website for a while to see if I would get spammed a lot and if so, I can contact that website knowing that they are the one that are sending the spam because it takes the guessing out of who is sending the spam.

Also, maybe a good idea to use when bringing a conversation from internet sites to personal email.

What you y'all think about this and if you like using them, which one is best?


It never hurts to have a "junk" email account for filtering things out. Once you know you want the mail you're getting, you can log back into whatever site you're using, and change the email listed to one you actually use.

Most times you can contact a company to opt out of received emails (it is law that they are required to give you an "unsubscribe" option). That said, there are always individual scammers and a few sites that don't care about the law, as they are fishing for personal data. If I cannot opt out of receiving an email, I personally won't use that website.

It doesn't really matter who you use - gmail, hotmail, yahoo, or any other email carrier. Stick with one you know and like, that makes it easier on you!

If you run into any technical difficulties, post them. If I don't get to it I'm sure someone else will. Cheers!


_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to oregongirl)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 10:04:56 AM   
oregongirl


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RemoteUser, thanks for your response. I was thinking more on the lines of using a service like one of these:

http://email.about.com/od/disposableemailservices/tp/disposable.htm

Whatcha think?

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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 10:14:32 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oregongirl

RemoteUser, thanks for your response. I was thinking more on the lines of using a service like one of these:

http://email.about.com/od/disposableemailservices/tp/disposable.htm

Whatcha think?


You have to be careful with these things (fine print and all). Examples:

Mailinator lets you use any email address @mailinator.com and pick up the mail at their site. Since there's no connection to your real address, you sure won't get spam from using Mailinator addresses. Keep in mind that all mail sent to Mailinator is made public.

E4ward.com is a down-to-earth and very useful disposable email service that makes it easy to prevent spam to your real email address with easily erasable aliases. You can use your own domain with E4ward.com, but address masking in your replies is a bit cumbersome and auto-expiring aliases are not offered.

And so on. Here's another thing: whenever you send email, what you're doing is taking information and shooting it off from Point A to Point B. To successfully do that, both points have to be known, so your IP address is logged and tracked by the receiving end. Now, this is standard of every email, so it's nothing you can prevent (and thus nothing worth worrying about), but it is good to know. What this really means is that masking your email address to hide it is not particularly effective. That's why I suggest using a regular mail service (Yahoo was in that list, at the bottom) that you're comfortable with. You can check mail there or set it up to forward to a regular account you use (which is actually better for preserving your anonymity).

It all comes down to what you want. Hope that helps!

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to oregongirl)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 10:26:06 AM   
oregongirl


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Yes RemoteUser, it does help. thank you for explaining so well :)

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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 10:33:47 AM   
ivone1


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i hardly ever log out of collarme...i usually just change pages ... the reason is i cant remember my password on here... im a little dense when it comes to my collar me password .... i have never been hacked... so i dont believe it just saying

(in reply to descrite)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 10:53:11 AM   
oregongirl


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RemoteUser, thanks for explaining that. Yes, I think I will use of the three major free mail clients that I already have and create an alias email and go from there.

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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 5:54:09 PM   
descrite


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quote:

And yes, I would say a person shooting heroin should use a condom, because they could still have the sense to use clean needles, but maybe the tweaker or the filthy crack addict they are having sex with has more bugs than a landfill.
At the least they could still be having sex with someone that knows nothing about their habit.


Ah. Well, see, the "if" in your statement is the bane of the security industry. It's overkill, and based strictly on assumption/fear, not risk assessment. Good security pros hate it because it is a disservice to the client, abusing the fiduciary responsibility, and mediocre ones love it, because fear works (see: GWOT).



quote:

Wow, you don't have much respect for my intellect, do you?


Wow. You sure take things personally, don't you?

Read my post. I wasn't talking about you, personally; I was talking about how your system is not optimum for the average user.

Now, however, I'm talking about you. See the difference?

quote:

You are exhibiting the same crappy control freak attitude in this thread as you did in the other one, b/c you can't stand to not be right. Do you have *any* idea how undomly that is?


Swell. Can you refute the point I was making (how your specific scheme lends itself to proactive interference) instead of making ad hominem attacks? Or do "real" doms not have to use logic, and are instead allowed to resort to personal zings to make their points?



oregon-- why are you "emailing websites"?















(in reply to oregongirl)
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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 6:08:27 PM   
oregongirl


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quote:

oregon-- why are you "emailing websites"?


I just meant that I subscribe to many websites and intend to do more in the future. I have to have an email address to subscribe to their website; i.e., techie forums, car forums, ebay, etc. But I was wondering (from this point forward) how to eliminate a lot of spam when first signing up to a website. Sorry if the way I described it didn't come out the right way. I just thought that using an alias email addy would be the way to go, but I got to think about this, and then what if they turned out to be on the up and up and wanted to use my real email address. I guess it's an easy fix, just go into their CP and change my email address.

FYI, there is a class through where I work (work a rec center) where they offer a class on how to protect your computer and also backing up important data, etc. I might take that course.


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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 6:48:59 PM   
SpaceSpank


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That's quite funny, since every single "good" security site, blog, journal, expert has expressed the need for basic protection. I happen to work with many of them, and "most" I know personally recommend a locked down *Nix based OS over Windows, but begrudgingly will suggest Win7 with Firefox/Chrome and one of the better reviewed and less bloated pieces of anti malware.

So "overkill" is not quite the word I'd use for a single low resource a/v application, a router or software firewall (router preferred), and a better browser than IE:6.

The "if's" are out there. I deal with them literally daily, but that doesn't mean normal people need to do more than heed the highly likely ones.
Most average users install more applications that will impact performance than the above software will. And of the above better browsing habits will be several orders of magnitude more difficult for them to get used to than the maybe once a week update/scan of an A/V application.


None of that has anything to do with people installing several different bloated A/V applications and dozens of anti malware/security software, etc. There's a whole market preying on peoples paranoia, but you can't change the fact that a person with 0, or just above it, knowledge of computers more than "click on thingy to get e-mail" are better off with some level of basic protection.

quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

Ah. Well, see, the "if" in your statement is the bane of the security industry. It's overkill, and based strictly on assumption/fear, not risk assessment. Good security pros hate it because it is a disservice to the client, abusing the fiduciary responsibility, and mediocre ones love it, because fear works (see: GWOT).




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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 7:52:13 PM   
descrite


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Okay. Your "if" was in the heroin example. Not in the antivirus example. But...that's neither here nor there.

Check those "good" sites/blogs/journals...who are their primary advertisers?

"Most" are wrong. There are a few who are correct-- and they will be the ones to watch.

Snake oil is snake oil.

No user will ever be protected by a piece of software as long as they decide to use their machine in an unsafe manner; all the software does is harvest your information, hog your resources, and limit functionality. What does that sound like? Yes-- it's self-installed malware.

Look up "bane"-- it doesn't mean "what advice is popular."

We definitely agree about browsers. But I think we could teach a novice user to operate Firefox a lot faster that Ubuntu.









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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 8:09:56 PM   
SpaceSpank


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You are still markedly incorrect in that assumption, and the heroin was your example, not mine. I simply proved there are cases where even a disease ridden heroin user should still sue a condom.

And "good" a/v software will use less resources than most browsers, let alone the majority of junk average users wind up installing. It also won't collect any information at all, or it will ask you to specifically submit information that you can choose to deny or accept (IE: unknown virus information, crash reports, registration info). And will only limit functionality to malware or a rare few false positives that behave like malware.
In other words, you're completely wrong or you're basing your assumption on someone using the worst possible examples of everything to try and prove your point.

And software WILL prevent "some" protection. Nothing and no one can protect against everything, but that doesn't mean you should not no protection at all. Do you feel the same way about birth control? Since condoms limit sensation for some people, are not 100% effective against pregnancy and STD's, and are prone to heavy failure rates if not used correctly, does that mean you should just go without? Since that's exactly what you're advocating here.

There are tons of script kiddies out there, loads of easy automated tools that can infect the legions of poorly updated servers/machines that can be infected with widely known infections... that will only infect systems that also have no protection against it. Even if it's a low % figure like 20%, that's 20% of attacks you would have otherwise been infected by for negligible system resources and 0 cost.

Again, all of that is "easy" to do. Teaching proper behavior and tools that might actually be more of an impact to their use (alternate OS's, sandboxes, VM's, disabling scritps in more secure browsers, etc) is both more protective and also much harder to get used to.

So I just can't see how anyone can argue against something that will protect them from a non trivial amount of bad things for 0 cost, near 0 effort, and with almost no impact upon their day to day use of a computer.

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RE: Is it true that if you do not log out of CM that yo... - 10/19/2012 8:44:42 PM   
domoarigato042


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Read through most the thread, my comments on the several things the thread touched on.

1) For not logging out, really depends are you using wireless, a hardline and where. If it is wireless I would say yes, wireless on an unsecured network doubly so. For a hardline, if it is your own then not so much, in a public place, yes you are very vulnerable as it most likely is a public machines. Also, having some form of anti-virus and malware software on your machine helps. Which one, really depends on preference, but it is insane not to have one. Lets face it most people run windows which is has terrible security when compared to a Unix or Linux system. As far as I can tell CollarMe as a site does not have very good security. The main tip off of this, if you forget your password they can send it to you. This means that there server has the plaintext of the password which means if someone compromises the server they have everyone's email address and password. You know they are going to try that password on the email addresses they pilfered along with the most commonly used banking sites. So for starters I would not really trust CM as a site for security. Pity they do not support secure communications with the https...

2) The person who had physical access to your computer. Really depends on his character, were you sharing a user account, and how computer savvy he was. If you left on good terms I would not worry too much, however I would change my passwords to everything important (email, bank account etc. Make each one different so if someone compromises one it is much harder for them to get the others. If you write it down, best place to put it is in your wallet or in a encrypted file. Lets face it if you lose your wallet probably going to have to rekey those things anyway, just do not put what the passwords are for). If you had separate accounts I believe windows enforces user views so he would not be able to see your stuff. However, if he is computer savvy he can always find a linux disk, pop it in and overwrite your password to get access.. unless you have locked the bios or have encrypted your user space.

3) SANS is a pretty good organization, they do a lot of research and tracking of computer security related issues. If they recommend something it is probably a good idea to take their advice. I disagree on the anti-virus side, to me it is insane to not have one. The trick is to get a reputable one from a reputable site (like CNET). The ones that boast a lot of people probably are fine. If they harvested your data and did not do something you can bet there would probably be a lawsuit against them. As to which is best, I will not get into that argument.

4) Password length should be at least 16 characters, if they are using RSA based encryption or any of the older legacy SHA algorithms. If they are using one of the newer ones or ECC a shorter password is probably fine, I just would not risk it. The problem with a 8 character password is that without other precautions they can be brute forced quite trivially. The problem is of course that most sites do not let you have a password of longer than 8 characters, then add their own restrictions which further makes the things easier to brute force. So yea you are being forced to create un-secure passwords.

In closing a few recommendations:
1) If possible create separate 16 character passwords or 4 word pass phrases for everything. If you cannot remember this, then take a tiered approach, one set of passwords for stuff you do not care about (this site, news sites, etc), another set for things you care slightly more about (junk email addresses, this site if you value it such, etc.), another for high value things like bank accounts and your primary email account. You can probably get by writing down the passwords to the sites you do not really care about to save you memory there.

2) If possible encrypted your hard drive. Most encryption is rigged so the security lays in the key, and unless someone has the key, it will take at least 15 years (if not thousands of years using current tech) of non-stop computation to get it. Also have separate accounts for everyone and do not give them root access. If your willing to give it a whirl I would suggest a linux based system. It was designed for multiple users and has very strong access controls, though it does have a very steep learning curve.

That is all I have for now, hope it helps.


(in reply to SpaceSpank)
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