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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/26/2012 11:00:34 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

You didn't quite address the point of why any of us should take any notice of a text that's so full of factual and moral horseshit written by savages two thousand years ago, Aswad. Otherwise, you did quite well there.

Fair enough.

Let me rectify the omission.

Whatever its merits and demerits, 3.7 billion people, roughly half the world's population, are directly influenced by this body of texts, and most of the rest are indirectly influenced by it. If you know some criterion for notability it does not meet, I would be most interested in (a) hearing about them, and (b) hearing whence you pulled those criterion.

I don't need to be a Republican, or even an American, to have heard of Mitt Romney and to take notice of him, regardless of the fact that he appears to have a sufficient fecal content to corner the market on fertilizer if he should gulp some laxatives. He is a very large, brown smear that is very difficult to ignore. I would be a fool not to take notice.

Does this sufficiently address your question?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: Savages, Peon? Tsk, tsk.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 281

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 12:27:33 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
But I think it is plain wrong to accuse this guy of saying that god was behind the rape, I think it's wrong because - He didn't say that.

I think he did, Crazy. Moreover, he's defended his position since saying it. I'd advise: never underestimate just how cuntish the American religious Right can be.

I've no doubt that the Religious Right of whatever the country can be truly horrible and nasty. And, for clarity (I appreciate you don't need this much clarity but as you know, people are sensitive here), I can only say I'm with you in standing against their idiocy - especially if they want to impose it on me.

But unless you can come up with another quote he didn't say that god intended rape to happen, as I cannot see any reasonable parsing of the sentence below can be given that meaning. The following sentence does not assert that God intended rape to happen:

"Even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, it is something God intended to happen"

The thing in this sentence that God intended to happen is "life". The "rape" is the condition under which that life began.

The following sentence has an identical meaning...

"All life begins because God intended to happen, even when it begins in that horrible situation of rape."

Now Peon, you're a bloke I've got a lot of time for, if you (or anyone else for that matter) can show me how the quote I've used (or my rearrangement of it for that matter) can possibly be equivalent to...

"The beginning of life, and rape, are things that god intended to happen"

Then I will apologise for being a muppet and tip my hat to you.

I do wonder if there's some selective parsing going on though... just as there was with the (and for fuck's sake everyone I'm just using it as an example, and not inviting a rediscussion) "Obama claims no-one built anything" bullshit.

And for the avoidance of confusion of others

As it happens I don't believe in God,
I believe in the right of other, often very smart people, to believe in God
I don't believe anyone should be allowed to impose their religious views on me
I don't believe anyone should be allowed to dictate what a woman is or is not allowed to do with her body
I believe that "life" starts when you make your first mortgage payment.
No that doesn't mean that I believe that the time limit for abortions should be set to 22 years after birth, it means that I think the definition of when "life" begins is not a good way of determining when a bunch of cells transitions from being essentially a parasitic lump of cells into a human being.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 282

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 2:45:14 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

Classic churches offer an alternative to being religious, and a way to get together with people of a similar disposition, some of which are religious, but most just being churchgoers that listen to someone they believe to be religious. Of course, this is also encouraged. And it is not without its parallells. Judges are still interpreting the secular law these days. We don't call them priests anymore, of course, and we bring more grievances before them than we used to, even though the difficult questions have been shifted onto the media instead. But the bottom line remains: thinking was the first job humans thought to outsource, and outsourcing it is as popular as it's ever been. Churches provide a service in that field.

Now, granted, if one views a religion as a law to follow, codified in some text, then obviously the question becomes one of following the whole law. Most people don't follow the whole law, whatever law we're talking about. That's a thing about humans and laws that I doubt will ever change, and I fail to see how religion is a special case in that regard. I think religion is at a much higher level of abstraction than mere law, though. An atheist friend of mine called it "lobbing a bundle of insight down the ages and hoping someone will catch it", which is certainly a possibility. Either way, law doesn't really seem to be an adequate approach.

See, from my perspective, even if one follows the "law" to the letter, one is picking and choosing, rather than actually grasping the idea and living the underlying principles, because those principles imply laws that have not been put into the text, and implies the invalidity of some that are in the text, and that's just dealing with the inadequate and beurocratic notion of religion as law-centric. Back when the civil rights movement started out, the issue may superficially have been rights for black people, but the greater issue is universal rights. For this reason, I think rights for one minority was picking and choosing in this sense. The Desmond Tutu quote someone here uses as a signature line is one that springs readily to mind.

The argument being put here reminds me of the classic response of Marxists when confronted with the failures of Soviet-style Marxism. "Oh that's not really Marxism, it's not true Marxism". Well perhaps the Chinese model is 'true' Marxism? Nope, that's not 'true' Marxism either. Their point? Marxism cannot be said to have failed because a 'true' version of Marxism has never been tested. Ditto religion.

So we are asked to disregard the texts, the churches and the historical practice and instead look for the "underlying principles" instead. In the case of Christianity, the underlying principle to be individually divined (no pun intended) could be stated as "Love one another" or "follow the Bible" or "do unto others as you would have them do to you" or indeed something else entirely, depending on who might be doing the stating at any given point in time. We end up with a never ending series of goalpost shifts as each potential "underlying principle" is examined critically, its flaws exposed and discarded. ("That's not true Christianity") The essence of Christianity turns out to be as elusive as quicksilver. Please note I am using Christianity purely as an example here.

"Love one another" could turn out to be an incitement to homosexual sex; "follow the Bible" ends up in tedious theological debate as the multiplicity of squabbling Christian sects all claiming to be the "true" Christianity attest; and "do unto others as you would have them do to you" might turn out to be a wee bit embarrassing if the person so instructed is, for example, a masochist or sadist and you aren't compatible. As it happens "do unto others as you would have them do to you" has many virtues as utilitarian principle, and works perfectly well without having any religious or spiritual aspects to it at all.

We remain marooned, grasping for permanently shifting goalposts or end up with something that is not intrinsically religious at all. All too obscure to act as a basis for intellectual enquiry for me. So despite the eloquence of your argument, I am not persuaded it advances the discussion at all.

_____________________________

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 283

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:21:16 AM

Aswad

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Fair enough, tweakabelle.

I've failed before and shall doubtless fail again.

There was nothing eloquent about what I said, as by the reply it clearly did not communicate or connect in any way, shape or form, to any degree whatsoever; my apologies for wasting both our times.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

ETA: I'm assuming your reply was to #142 as well.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/27/2012 4:26:13 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 284

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:25:20 AM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

Richard Mourdock: "Even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, it is something God intended to happen"

Are you suggesting he only meant part of what he said. It seems to me you cant suggest, as Mourdock does, that God meant conception but didnt mean rape. Not unless any of you thinking this way have direct line to the almighty himself. It is akin to saying "God intended that he had a car which he crashed" and selectively suggesting god only meant the first part.

Angel: Look, there's a woman getting raped down there.
God: Aw, shucks, can't do shit about it without violating his right to free will.
Angel: Yanno, the mamameter says this is an opportunity to...
God: ... damn, you're right! Turn on the conceptionator beams!
Creepy Machine: -whirr- -buzz- -spark- -bang-
Murdie: Aww, a baby! It (the baby) is something God intended to happen, and cute to boot.

What part of this parody has God prodding a guy into raping someone?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

There is a big difference between a phrase and a parody. Nothing changes the facts regards Mourdocks actual words. It becomes even clearer, in my opinion, if you watch the video.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 285

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:49:27 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There is a big difference between a phrase and a parody. Nothing changes the facts regards Mourdocks actual words. It becomes even clearer, in my opinion, if you watch the video.

I've watched parts of it. Is watching the rest going to be night and day?

Otherwise, I can interpret what he said the way you have, but only by herding my mind down that path and then coercing it to agree.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 286

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:54:33 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thats not rape. Look at the differences in how its written.

Yes go back and look at how it's written. The KJV uses an archaic phrase to express the concept of violent rape. This is why you shouldn't accuse someone of cherry picking when they cite a modern well translated version and then whip out the KJV

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And then there is consensual sex. The tip of is being found with another and no screaming to be heard.

Nope, the third is for when the crime of property damage has been committed against the father and not the husband.

Look at all the translations, an attack not consensual sex is consistently being described.

Deuteronomy 22:28

NIV
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

American Standard Version
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Bible in Basic English
If a man sees a young virgin, who has not given her word to be married to anyone, and he takes her by force and has connection with her, and discovery is made of it;

Common English Bible
If a man meets up with a young woman who is a virgin and not engaged, grabs her and has sex with her, and they are caught in the act,

Complete Jewish Bible
"If a man comes upon a girl who is a virgin but who is not engaged, and he grabs her and has sexual relations with her, and they are caught in the act,

Douay-Rheims
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment:

English Standard Version
"If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

GOD'S WORD Translation
his is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn't engaged. When the crime is discovered,

Good News Translation
"Suppose a man is caught raping a young woman who is not engaged.

Hebrew Names Version
If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Holman Christian Standard
If a man encounters a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, takes hold of her and rapes her, and they are discovered,

King James Version
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed , and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found ;

New American Standard
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

New Century Version
If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged to be married and forces her to have sexual relations with him and people find out about it,

New International Reader's Version
Suppose a man happens to see a virgin who hasn't promised to marry another man. And the man who happens to see her rapes her. But someone discovers them.

New King James Version
"If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out,

New Living Translation
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged,

New Revised Standard
If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act,

Revised Standard Version
"If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

The Darby Translation
If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found,

The Message
When a man comes upon a virgin who has never been engaged and grabs and rapes her and they are found out,

The Webster Bible
If a man shall find a damsel [that is] a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Third Millennium Bible
"If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found,

Today's New International Version
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

World English Bible
If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Wycliffe
If a man findeth a damsel (who is a) virgin, that hath no spouse, and taketh, and doeth lechery with her, and the thing cometh to the doom, (If a man findeth a young woman who is a virgin, who hath no spouse, and he taketh hold of her, and doeth lechery with her, and the thing cometh to be known,)

Young's Literal Translation
`When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 287

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:58:40 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm humbled that you have given me such a great title. However, your OP argument is incorrect. He did not say that rape is a gift from God, or intended by God. I am not defending his statement, because I don't agree with it. But, at least what I am in disagreement with, is actually what was meant.
I do find it deliciously ironic that you accuse me of parsing his words so they fit my argument.
For instance, you left out what came before his statement, which would have divulged, quite easily, what he was calling "it." But, I do understand.

So you are not defending his statement, because you dont agree with it, but you disagree with what he actually meant.
That is so convoluted I havent a clue WTF are you on about ?

Sorry. Didn't mean to give you that much trouble.

I'm refuting your analysis of his statement. I offer a different analysis than yours.

I accept that he holds that belief. I do not hold that same belief.

I am not surprised you didn't address the very last statement I made in the post you quoted.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 288

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 5:46:02 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Nothing changes the facts regards Mourdocks actual words.

Hold that thought.

K.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 289

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 6:35:10 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Yes go back and look at how it's written. The KJV uses an archaic phrase to express the concept of violent rape. This is why you shouldn't accuse someone of cherry picking when they cite a modern well translated version and then whip out the KJV

When taken from the same chapter, context is everything.

quote:

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

quote:

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

and lay hold on her, and lie with her, she yielding to it, and so is not expressive of a rape, as Deuteronomy 22:25 where a different word from this is there used; which signifies taking strong hold of her, and ravishing her by force; yet this, though owing to his first violent seizure of her, and so different from what was obtained by enticing words, professions of love, and promises of marriage, and the like, as in Exodus 22:16 but not without her consent:

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-28.htm

If a man entice a maid - This was an exceedingly wise and humane law, and must have operated powerfully against seduction and fornication; because the person who might feel inclined to take the advantage of a young woman knew that he must marry her, and give her a dowry, if her parents consented; and if they did not consent that their daughter should wed her seducer, in this case he was obliged to give her the full dowry which could have been demanded had she been still a virgin. According to the Targumist here, and to Deuteronomy 22:29, the dowry was fifty shekels of silver, which the seducer was to pay to her father, and he was obliged to take her to wife; nor had he authority, according to the Jewish canons, ever to put her away by a bill of divorce. This one consideration was a powerful curb on disorderly passions, and must tend greatly to render marriages respectable, and prevent all crimes of this nature.

..........

And if a man entice a maid, that is not betrothed,.... For one might be betrothed according to the custom of those times, and not be married, or the nuptials consummated, and so be yet a maid or virgin; but being betrothed, it made the case different, because such an one was as a wife to a man: but the case here supposed is of a maid not betrothed, and also not forced, but yielding to the solicitations of a man, as is implied by her being enticed; which signifies his gaining upon her affections, and obtaining her consent by expressing strong affection for her, and making large promises to her, and so both by words and gestures prevailing with her to yield to his desire:

and lie with her; in a way of carnal copulation; and such an action between two single persons, by consent, is what is called simple fornication: if this was done in a field, the maid was supposed to be forced, since there she might cry out, and not be heard; but if in a city, she is supposed to be enticed, and consent, since if she cried out she might be heard; this the Jewish writers gather from Deuteronomy 22:23, though the law there respects a betrothed damsel:

he shall surely endow her to be his wife; give her a dowry in order to be his wife, or, however, such an one as he would or must give if she became his wife, even one suitable to her rank and dignity, whether he married her or not; for he was not obliged to it whether he would or not, and in some cases could not if he would, as follows......

..........

The seduction of a girl, who belonged to her father as long as she was not betrothed (cf. Exodus 21:7), was also to be regarded as an attack upon the family possession. Whoever persuaded a girl to let him lie with her, was to obtain her for a wife by the payment of a dowry (מהר see Genesis 34:12); and if her father refused to give her to him, he was to weigh (pay) money equivalent to the dowry of maidens, i.e., to pay the father just as much for the disgrace brought upon him by the seduction of his daughter, as maidens would receive for a dowry upon their marriage. The seduction of a girl who was betrothed, was punished much more severely (see Deuteronomy 22:23-24).

http://bible.cc/exodus/22-16.htm

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 290

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 7:12:41 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It is akin to saying "God intended that he had a car which he crashed" and selectively suggesting god only meant the first part.

Errm... Not it's not. It is if you add a comma though... "God intended that he had a car, which he crashed"

I've played the second video on the link a dozen times and nope. He absolutely was not asserting that rape was a gift from god. Not a chance, no way no how.

Really.

The longer quote is "And I came to realise life is a gift from god, and I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, it is something God intended to happen."

Now it's as plain as day. The subject of the sentence is "life".

There is no way you can credibly parse this sentence otherwise.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 291

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 7:18:23 AM

OttersSwim

Posts: 2860
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It does not change the fact that according to this guy, God is a douche.

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I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

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Post #: 292

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 7:26:11 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

It does not change the fact that according to this guy, God is a douche.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting for a moment that this guy, and the "God" he worships aren't douches!

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 293

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 1:39:41 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Sorry. Didn't mean to give you that much trouble.

I'm refuting your analysis of his statement. I offer a different analysis than yours.

I accept that he holds that belief. I do not hold that same belief.

I am not surprised you didn't address the very last statement I made in the post you quoted.

Re the bolded comment.

I have already given my view on the comment as a whole.

Edits to add........Its post 115#
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4276704/mpage_6/tm.htm#

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 10/27/2012 1:40:56 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 294

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 2:32:00 PM

thexxxxmaster

Posts: 102
Joined: 5/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It is akin to saying "God intended that he had a car which he crashed" and selectively suggesting god only meant the first part.

The longer quote is "And I came to realise life is a gift from god, and I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, it is something God intended to happen."

Now it's as plain as day. The subject of the sentence is "life".

There is no way you can credibly parse this sentence otherwise.

There most certainly is, for two obvious reasons.

1 Physiology determines that there can be no gift without impregnation, hence this god is providing a gift to the male because you have to believe that this god, if capable of determining the impregnation, then it is also responsible for the rape, it intended it, the whole process of conception, to occur.

2. For anyone to believe that the conception is a gift from their god they would obviously also believe that it determines everything, it is all powerful, and therefore the god must also be responsible for the rape. And for any violence that occurred.

One cannot ignore the implications and logical concepts evolving from the statement. The complexity of communication is not solely based on simplistic grammar analysis as you are well aware.

God is speaking! Simples!

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 295

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 2:38:06 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

God is speaking! Simples!

we heard that during the GOP primaries race....

How many did God tell to run for the GOP?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thexxxxmaster)

Post #: 296

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 3:24:48 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

God is speaking! Simples!

we heard that during the GOP primaries race....

How many did God tell to run for the GOP?

11....I counted.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 297

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:42:23 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thexxxxmaster

There most certainly is, for two obvious reasons.

1 Physiology determines that there can be no gift without impregnation, hence this god is providing a gift to the male because you have to believe that this god, if capable of determining the impregnation, then it is also responsible for the rape, it intended it, the whole process of conception, to occur.

2. For anyone to believe that the conception is a gift from their god they would obviously also believe that it determines everything, it is all powerful, and therefore the god must also be responsible for the rape. And for any violence that occurred.

One cannot ignore the implications and logical concepts evolving from the statement. The complexity of communication is not solely based on simplistic grammar analysis as you are well aware.

God is speaking! Simples!

I am glad somebody actually gets the concept that one event cant happen without the other. Mourdock clearly linked the two.

(in reply to thexxxxmaster)

Post #: 298

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 4:57:23 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

God is speaking! Simples!

we heard that during the GOP primaries race....

How many did God tell to run for the GOP?

11....I counted.

And people think God doesnt have a sense of humor.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 299

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 5:00:25 PM

Lucylastic

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 300

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