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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 5:04:51 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

And people think God doesnt have a sense of humor.

Oh, She definitely does.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 7:23:00 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am glad somebody actually gets the concept that one event cant happen without the other. Mourdock clearly linked the two.


If one event already has happened due to the exercise of free will, how does this imply that God has desired said will to be exercised in such a way?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 8:40:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thexxxxmaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

There is no way you can credibly parse this sentence otherwise.

There most certainly is...

The operative word there was "credibly". Your convoluted parsing demonstrates only the lengths to which you will go to make the words mean what you want to accuse them of meaning. It fails completely -- one might almost say spectacularly -- to establish that the speaker even remotely intended the meaning you insist on reading into them.

K.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 9:43:29 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Sorry. Didn't mean to give you that much trouble.
I'm refuting your analysis of his statement. I offer a different analysis than yours.
I accept that he holds that belief. I do not hold that same belief.
I am not surprised you didn't address the very last statement I made in the post you quoted.

Re the bolded comment.
I have already given my view on the comment as a whole.
Edits to add........Its post 115#
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4276704/mpage_6/tm.htm#


No, you are giving your view on part of a comment, as a whole. You have not addressed my statement. You didn't post the entire comment he made. You lost all context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69fswKTbjzs
    quote:

    "You know, this is that issue that every candidate for federal or even state office faces.
    "And I, too, certainly stand for life.
    "I know there are some who disagree and I respect their point of view but I believe that life believes at conception.
    "The only exception I have for -- to have an abortion is in that case for the life of the mother.
    "I just -- I struggle with it myself for a long time but I came to realize that life is that gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape that it is something that God intended to happen."


http://www.whatthefolly.com/2012/10/24/transcript-indiana-republican-senate-candidate-richard-mourdocks-comments-on-denying-abortion-in-rape-cases/

    quote:

    Moderator Dennis Fyerson, Indiana Debate Commission Board Member:
    “The issue of abortion and contraception continue to divide the country. Questions received from voters reflected that divide. For example, one voter wanted to know your position on a woman’s right to abortion but not only that but to contraception and other reproductive health services and whether government should provide those services. Another asked if you believed that life begins at conception and in that person’s view what would you do to protect babies who could be aborted during your term in the Senate. So where do you stand on these issues?”
    Richard Mourdock:
    “You know, this is that issue that every candidate for federal or even state office faces.
    “And I, too, certainly stand for life.
    “I know there are some who disagree and I respect their point of view but I believe that life believes at conception.
    “The only exception I have for – to have an abortion is in that case for the life of the mother.
    “I just – I struggle with it myself for a long time but I came to realize that life is that gift from God, and I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape that it is something that God intended to happen.”


The moderator asked where Mourdock stands on the abortion issue.

When Mourdock states, "this is that issue," he is talking about abortion. He states he stands for life. In his next statement, he states he believes life starts at conception, acknowledging that there are people who don't agree, and that he respects their point of view. Then, he states that he believes the only exception that allows for an abortion is in those cases where the life of the mother is in jeopardy. Next, he states that he struggled with "it." What else could "it" have been referring to other than abortion? He then states that he realized life is a gift from God. Then, he finishes the statement that you have cherry-picked with the assertion that even when life begins from a rape, that it - life - is intended. When you look at everything he said in response to the question posed, there is no way he could have been stating that God intended the rape to happen.

You

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What I support:

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/27/2012 11:08:47 PM   
SadistDave


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Just to throw some fuel on the fire here... There is actually some Biblical precedence...

Granted, this is all Old Testament stuff, but grab your KJVs and play along at home if you like....

1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."
[The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

Ain't religion grand?

Just for shits and giggles though, read Romans 9, and you'll find that even in the New Testament, the notion that God creates evil people to fulfill "His" purposes for the greater good is popular with the disciples.

-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 10/27/2012 11:17:50 PM >


_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 3:22:47 AM   
thexxxxmaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thexxxxmaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

There is no way you can credibly parse this sentence otherwise.

There most certainly is...

The operative word there was "credibly". Your convoluted parsing demonstrates only the lengths to which you will go to make the words mean what you want to accuse them of meaning. It fails completely -- one might almost say spectacularly -- to establish that the speaker even remotely intended the meaning you insist on reading into them.

K.

Riiiiight, indeed it is. Your logic is implying that immaculate conception is the norm.

When expressing conclusive opinion it is best to back it by reasoned logic.

You do indeed fail spectacularly.

People who are deeply religious believe that their god holds sway over every aspect of life, fact.

The speaker obviously is of the same opinion hence any logic applying that axiom is correct, since he could not have reached his conclusion.

What you are failing to take into account, as he also failed to do, is realise that his simplistic fiction would be analysed by greater intelligence.

Mother nature, the reality of life, raping his and your intellect.




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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 4:19:49 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am glad somebody actually gets the concept that one event cant happen without the other. Mourdock clearly linked the two.


If one event already has happened due to the exercise of free will, how does this imply that God has desired said will to be exercised in such a way?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Simple, Mourdocks comment was about conception via rape. The first cant happen, without the second taking place.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 4:23:17 AM   
Politesub53


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DS......Dont tell me what I am fucking saying......... I gave my position on Mourdocks post as a whole in post #115. I clearly stated that and am sorry if you are too stupid to see it.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 6:30:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
DS......Dont tell me what I am fucking saying......... I gave my position on Mourdocks post as a whole in post #115. I clearly stated that and am sorry if you are too stupid to see it.


You didn't even give his whole quote. How is it, then, that your comments were to his entire response?

Oh. I'm just supposed to "trust" that you did that.

Now, if you could show me how you got to your position based on the entire response, I'd love that.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 7:09:55 AM   
tazzygirl


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Try sticking with one version... None of those are the KJV.

But, just for shits and giggles.. lets see just where that all came from...

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm



< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/28/2012 7:13:06 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 7:39:32 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Try sticking with one version...

Must we? I often find it fascinating to see how a verse or passage appears in a variety of translations.

Bible Gateway is handy for that.


quote:

None of those are the KJV.

I love the beauty of the KJV, but it's probably not the best choice for getting to what the Hebrew or Greek actually said. For study groups and retreats at church, we tend to use the NRSV (which, I was just delighted to discover, finally seems to be available online).

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 7:45:19 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Simple, Mourdocks comment was about conception via rape. The first cant happen, without the second taking place.


The second having taken place, then, the first becomes a possibility. The second being attributable to man, the first being (in Mourdock's view) attributable to God. It is not said that the first is ordained, whether by way of the second or not. More to the point, I doubt Mourdock has considered these things very carefully, and it seems sensible to distinguish between what he said and what one considers to be implied by what was actually said.

Lots of NGOs advocate torturing and starving children, if we apply the same logic to their statements as you've applied to Mourdock.

See where I'm going with this?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 7:52:48 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Granted, this is all Old Testament stuff, but grab your KJVs and play along at home if you like....


Most Christian fundies tend to discount the OT as having been obsoleted by the NT (except when they're harping on LGBTs).

That said, most of what you referred to has to do with enemies, which is an entirely different matter from how to treat your own.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 8:01:08 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Try sticking with one version... None of those are the KJV.

That version should not be the KJV.

1. It's archaic english renders it difficult to understand.
2. Advances in scholarship and access to earlier, more accurate manuscripts allow modern translations to be more accurate.
3. Modern efforts lack the bias of King James' patronage:
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version
James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy.[9] The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 8:43:19 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Yes go back and look at how it's written. The KJV uses an archaic phrase to express the concept of violent rape. This is why you shouldn't accuse someone of cherry picking when they cite a modern well translated version and then whip out the KJV


http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-28.htm


*Face palm*

Oh tazzy, don't double down on this.

It's certainly cherry picking to ignore the modern scholarship that has a notable tendency to use words like rapes, forces, seizes, grabs to quote a 18th century Calvinist who makes Mourdock look like a woman's rights champion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles_in_Christianity#Post_Reformation
In Gen_3:16, "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". By this the apostle would signify, that the reason why women are not to speak in the church, or to preach and teach publicly, or be concerned in the ministerial function, is, because this is an act of power, and authority; of rule and government, and so contrary to that subjection which God in his law requires of women unto men. The extraordinary instances of Deborah, Huldah, and Anna, must not be drawn into a rule or example in such cases.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 9:35:06 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

It's certainly cherry picking to ignore the modern scholarship that has a notable tendency to use words like rapes, forces, seizes, grabs to quote a 18th century Calvinist who makes Mourdock look like a woman's rights champion.


Ignoring? Hardly.

NAB released 2011.

NLT 1999.

No one is ignoring them... I am dismissing them. The more something is "translated" the more bastardized it becomes.

Couple that with the fact that the old farts like Mourdock grew up with the KJV, then we should go to that version.

Second.... there is a huge difference in what was allowed to happen during war, and to the spoils of war, in those times than there is now.... or is there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape

Its still on going. Does that excuse it? No. But the passage we were discussing does not address wars or conquered peoples.

Its sad that so many forget that the Bible was started almost 1500 B.C.

Deuteronomy was written approx 1405 B.C. Anyone who follows it to the letter today is insane. Anyone who points to it and screams "evil" forgets their history.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 9:54:44 AM   
Rule


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FR

What is this thread about? Is it about the Divine, or is it about the Old Testament? Or is it about that guy - clearly a conscienceless sociopath, as most politicians are - who covets to be have a job as a politician and be paid for it and who has changed his reality in order to win the votes of not overly bright religious people?

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 9:57:13 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Second.... there is a huge difference in what was allowed to happen during war, and to the spoils of war, in those times than there is now.... or is there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape

Its still on going. Does that excuse it? No. But the passage we were discussing does not address wars or conquered peoples.


Seriously, you're going to try the chewbacca defense.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 9:57:49 AM   
LoneDevil93


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A friend of mine told me about what Romney had said, and when I looked it up, forgive my language but I was pissed.
That is why they should not allow religion within politics, that's what caused the goddamn crusades back in like the 1500s and what not that massacred thousands.

I don't think the US is ever going to get another good president...then again have we ever had a good one?

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 10/28/2012 10:01:27 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Second.... there is a huge difference in what was allowed to happen during war, and to the spoils of war, in those times than there is now.... or is there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape

Its still on going. Does that excuse it? No. But the passage we were discussing does not address wars or conquered peoples.


Seriously, you're going to try the chewbacca defense.


The only one confused is you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 320
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