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RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 7:06:38 PM   
misanthropicdom


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/13/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

One of the disadvantages of the EC is that it can hand the presidency to someone who lost the popular vote.

Another disadvantage is that it effectively disenfranchises people who are minority voters in their state while effectively enfranchising illegal aliens, felons in prison and non citizens.


I agree with the first statement.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the second.

I think in the next few decades we'll see more states getting rid of the "winner take all" rule for the EC, and go with proportional representation. Two states do it now, more are sure to follow. It's the first step to getting rid of the EC entirely.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 7:20:33 PM   
flyhumbleguy


Posts: 162
Joined: 6/23/2011
Status: offline 		The EC is one of the few firewalls keeping the US from lapsing into European style socialism. Dictatorship and loss of individual rights won't be far behind.

(in reply to misanthropicdom)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 7:38:50 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: misanthropicdom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

One of the disadvantages of the EC is that it can hand the presidency to someone who lost the popular vote.

Another disadvantage is that it effectively disenfranchises people who are minority voters in their state while effectively enfranchising illegal aliens, felons in prison and non citizens.


I agree with the first statement.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the second.

I think in the next few decades we'll see more states getting rid of the "winner take all" rule for the EC, and go with proportional representation. Two states do it now, more are sure to follow. It's the first step to getting rid of the EC entirely.


The EC gives one vote per Rep in congress.
Representatives are apportioned based on total population, not number of citizens.

Let's use Cali for our example.
55 EV for 37 Million people
According to the University of California, 19% of the population of California is non-citizens.
This means that California has 11 more EV than it would if only citizens were represented.
Add in those who are in jail or released felons who have lost their right to vote and you have about 1 more EV representing them.
All 12 of those votes representing non citizens and dirtbags went for Mr Obama.
Almost 3.5 Million people in California voted for Romney. Their vote was, for all practical purposes, tossed into the shredder and not counted.
Every one of my friends on the Far Right is totally against doing away with the EC (probably soemting Rush told em to say) until I explain it this way and they they say "Holy FUCK, I never thought of it like that"

As for proportional representation , why not just cut out the middle man and get rid of the EC?

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 11/7/2012 7:41:45 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 7:40:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyhumbleguy

The EC is one of the few firewalls keeping the US from lapsing into European style socialism. Dictatorship and loss of individual rights won't be far behind.

How can you show that isn't just someone's 'talking point'?

Look at the numbers in the post above this one showing how the EC gives disproportionate weight to concentrations of non citizens, felons and illegals.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to flyhumbleguy)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:01:53 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I have been for eliminating the EC since '96. I think we have the technology to just count each individual vote and allow the presidential election to be a truly democratic process.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:07:06 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flyhumbleguy

The EC is one of the few firewalls keeping the US from lapsing into European style socialism. Dictatorship and loss of individual rights won't be far behind.




Yawn.....that shtick is get`n old.... 

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:09:16 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		If you go to a popular vote for your president, you will likely have to also adopt a scheme for runoff elections, and requirements the winner must have a certain percentage of the vote to prevail.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:11:04 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

If you go to a popular vote for your president, you will likely have to also adopt a scheme for runoff elections, and requirements the winner must have a certain percentage of the vote to prevail.

Why?

Serious question. Why would we need a runoff? Most votes = Win.
Not most votes = Lose.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:15:44 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		The issue is: Without an EC, we would have gotten Dole in '96 and Gore in 2000. Call it a trade-off, if you like but, I understand the point of the EC being there to "level a playing field".

It's a double-edged sword.

With the EC, you have someone who didn't get a majority of Americans voting for them (potentially, obviously) and without it, you could have four states (NY, Ca, Ill, and (?)Florida(?) ) making decisions for the entire country which might tend to disenfranchise the fly-over states.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:18:04 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

If you go to a popular vote for your president, you will likely have to also adopt a scheme for runoff elections, and requirements the winner must have a certain percentage of the vote to prevail.

Why?

Serious question. Why would we need a runoff? Most votes = Win.
Not most votes = Lose.


You can have a situation where the winner might have even only 20 percent of the vote otherwise, especially with 8-10 candidates.

The scheme we use is where in the first election, the winner also must have 40% of the vote to avoid a runoff election against the most significant runners up.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:20:16 PM   
misanthropicdom


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/13/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: misanthropicdom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

One of the disadvantages of the EC is that it can hand the presidency to someone who lost the popular vote.

Another disadvantage is that it effectively disenfranchises people who are minority voters in their state while effectively enfranchising illegal aliens, felons in prison and non citizens.


I agree with the first statement.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the second.

I think in the next few decades we'll see more states getting rid of the "winner take all" rule for the EC, and go with proportional representation. Two states do it now, more are sure to follow. It's the first step to getting rid of the EC entirely.


The EC gives one vote per Rep in congress.
Representatives are apportioned based on total population, not number of citizens.

Let's use Cali for our example.
55 EV for 37 Million people
According to the University of California, 19% of the population of California is non-citizens.
This means that California has 11 more EV than it would if only citizens were represented.
Add in those who are in jail or released felons who have lost their right to vote and you have about 1 more EV representing them.
All 12 of those votes representing non citizens and dirtbags went for Mr Obama.
Almost 3.5 Million people in California voted for Romney. Their vote was, for all practical purposes, tossed into the shredder and not counted.
Every one of my friends on the Far Right is totally against doing away with the EC (probably soemting Rush told em to say) until I explain it this way and they they say "Holy FUCK, I never thought of it like that"

As for proportional representation , why not just cut out the middle man and get rid of the EC?


OK, I can see your point. But similar things happen in other states that lean the other way. Without proportional representation, that is not likely to change.

Doing away with the EC would be difficult. The last time the idea was floated, neither party was the least bit interested. It's a system they know and understand well. I am always amused at the detail with which the wonks can go county by county and say which way the vote will go, and how that affects the EC reps, which states are more critical than others.

If there's going to be a major change, I'd rather see discussion of why a state with 850,000 people should have the same number of Senators and thus policy power as one with 37 million people...


< Message edited by misanthropicdom -- 11/7/2012 8:21:00 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:20:25 PM   
VideoAdminGamma


Posts: 2233
Status: offline 		Fast reply

There have been several posts pulled for various violations of the Community Guidelines and TOS. Before letters are sent, I will be consulting Alpha, as some of the violations are part of a long history of the same violation and some are very serious.

This topic will remain open for now, but I strongly suggest that members choose their words carefully and own the outcome of their posts.

Thank you for being a part of CollarMe,
Gamma

< Message edited by VideoAdminGamma -- 11/7/2012 8:22:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/7/2012 8:26:22 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: misanthropicdom

If there's going to be a major change, I'd rather see discussion of why a state with 850,000 people should have the same number of Senators and thus policy power as one with 37 million people...


That goes WAAAAAAY back to the framing of the constitution.
The bicameral legislature was a compromise. Back when the founding fathers were putting the thing together, the less populated states wanted every state to have the same voice. The more populous states wanted it done according to population.
The legislative branch was set up so that one part had every state with the same vote (Senate) and the other side had proportionality (House).

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to misanthropicdom)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 3:05:31 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Racism isnt dead in the north either.


It isnt dead in Europe, mores the pity. In some places it is even on the increase.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 3:11:57 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flyhumbleguy

The EC is one of the few firewalls keeping the US from lapsing into European style socialism. Dictatorship and loss of individual rights won't be far behind.


Someone else without a clue of European Politics........ Seriously, you guys need to read up more before spouting off.

The majority of EU Governments are either Conservative or centre right. From memory less than a third of the 27 members of the EU have a government thats even centre-left let along left wing. The notion you have any more freedoms than we do isnt matched by facts and I suggest you would be hard pressed to substantiate any.

(in reply to flyhumbleguy)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 3:32:23 AM   
flyhumbleguy


Posts: 162
Joined: 6/23/2011
Status: offline 		In less than 100 years from today, Europe has given us Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Milosevic...and these are just the All-Stars since it could certainly go on if we name lesser lights than these. The only reason there haven't been more holocausts, purges, and the like is that the U.S. has had to go in and neuter military capability in multiple instances.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 3:35:49 AM   
flyhumbleguy


Posts: 162
Joined: 6/23/2011
Status: offline 		Seriously? That's going to be your argument for undoing the longest standing representative democracy on the planet?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 3:38:15 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		The US did a great job of stopping the genocide campaign in the former Yugolslavia, didn't it?
Don't talk such drivel.

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 4:02:03 AM   
flyhumbleguy


Posts: 162
Joined: 6/23/2011
Status: offline 		Tell it to your boy Bill Clinton. You're lucky that the US had already neutered most of Europe's world warring, genocidal ass so that the sickness didn't spread more than it had.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: At Least "America is a Racist Country" is... - 11/8/2012 4:08:10 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, you're another of these people who thinks that the US saved Europe from Hitler single handed, rather than turning up three years late after Russia had already done most of the work, then.

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Profile   Post #: 180
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