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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/22/2012 11:09:15 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Tell that to the 14,000 workers who agreed to accept the CBA


Why do you approve of management being paid seven figures while asking labor to take a wage cut in a company that is going bankrupt?


Who says I do???

But now.... the employees have NO JOBS and over two thirds of the work force wanted to continue.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/22/2012 11:57:47 AM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		FR

This is yet another example that the most enduring achievements of the free market economy have been wage enslavement and creating unemployment.

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 people their jobs - 11/22/2012 12:35:21 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Bakeries aren't as profitable as they used to be. With people being more healthy these days, not as many twinkies being sold. It's funny, people used to eat way more twinkies in years past and were slimmer. Now we eat less twinkies and are fatter than ever.


Oh please ...


While it is true that I went from 145 to 160 (at 5'11"), during the ten years I was not only 'veggie,',but no junk of any sort (back to 155, now), this doesn't work for everybody, because we are, some of us, made differently.

I just have a weird catabolism.

But, if you knew the least thing about food science and food chemistry and, most especially, marketing, you might ascertain that not only is there more than one way to skin a cat, but, between food science and the FDA and the USDA (duly administered by bonafide agents of the corporations concerned), there are seemingly innumerable ways to insert bio-engineered skin of said cats into every item of food imaginable.

Basic food science, as taught in every such class; the combination of fat (especially of the saturated variety, all the better if not-fit-for-human-consumption cotton seed oil, if cost be any concern), salt, and sugar (especially of the high fructose corn syrup variety) is what sells, and by gosh they are hell bent on selling it.

You sell what sells, calories included. The fundamental of microeconomics is the study of how to attain maximization of profit, by whatever (usually) legal means necessary. If the marketing does it's job, the product gets sold. Marketing is eons further than what it was 30 years ago, regarding national brands, which is the issue at hand, here. Advanced marketing techniques equates to greater obesity, no question.

You also left out the fact that soda and snack machines did not exist in the school system 30 years ago, and pizza was only offered in the cafeteria once every one or two weeks,. That, and even worse, in terms of trans-fats, saturated fats, hyper-caloric foods, along with colas instead of milk or tea as drink with, are the 'standard,' every day in the US school system, now.




PS

Are people that much more stupid, now, so that the same economic demand for bad loans, such demand as has never changed over centuries, so that the demand curve in that regard has somehow shifted to the right, or that people's desire for whatever blows its pretty face before them EVER changed?

No, that hasn't changed. What HAS changed is that this government has completely given up on its own people, in every way imaginable.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/22/2012 1:04:17 PM >

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 people their jobs - 11/22/2012 12:44:45 PM   
CarlosDom76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

SO... the story headline being on Drudge makes it untrue?




Just about anything in Drudge is untrue. It's a tabloid, about as believable as the Inquirer. Being a rightwing tabloid doesn't make it any less a tabloid.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/22/2012 12:50:15 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Tell that to the 14,000 workers who agreed to accept the CBA


Why do you approve of management being paid seven figures while asking labor to take a wage cut in a company that is going bankrupt?


Who says I do???

But now.... the employees have NO JOBS and over two thirds of the work force wanted to continue.


And they'd still have jobs if they'd taken the pay cut without striking, would they? That's the only reason the company went bankrupt, I suppose...

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(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/22/2012 1:20:11 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

FR

This is yet another example that the most enduring achievements of the free market economy have been wage enslavement and creating unemployment.



Thank you, and thank you again, for noticing the distinction.

There are myriad ways of implementing a market economy, as a number of European countries have well demonstrated.

"Free market" has only once ever been tried, full scale, in Chile, where EVERYTING was privatized, including all elementary education.

They are still in the hole from that disaster.

As the US will be from 'free market' disaster for some years to come.


A market economy works, if you want it to.


If that market economy does not benefit the middle class (including lower middle class, and yes, upper middle class too), it NEVER works.



(in reply to stellauk)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 people their jobs - 11/22/2012 2:26:42 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Cuz we used to have to bike or walk to the store to get the fuckin things, (I was that toxic blueberry pie kinda guy) instead of mom driving us to get them or bringing them to us while we texted and played call of duty. 

And do chores to get the nickle or 10 cents to get them, they went to like a quarter, and I fuckin near died... 


What a coincidence that when I finally got up to speed, bike-wise, my family moved from the hilly country of Atlanta (where I had already broken two teeth, and nearly severed toes, from bike wrecks on steep hills) to the wide open spaces of Eastern North Carolina, almost (almost) as flat as Illinois (where they moved some years later). Eating habits, not to mention my allowance, took such a precipitous dive.

But, as you say, the running and the bike riding, in service to cussing ourselves as to where the money went, kept the universe in balance.

But oh, how happy on the ride out.

On top of that ...

I seem to be the only one here who actually had a relatively decent Catholic school experience.

The problem with all the others, their lives apparently psychologically destroyed, from their own experience, forever, was that they were not so privileged, nor so metaphysically inclined, as to experience the wonders of grades 3-4-5, in one classroom, one teacher for all, that coming from the latter 45 kids per class in the former situation.

As counter-intuitive and as counter-statistically as this may seem, that was the nearest to one-on-one attention I ever came somewhat close to.

AND ... I and this other kid were allowed to walk to the nearby store everyday, because his parents owned the store, and the nuns had sensitivity to local situations, etc. Unlike ANY other school system I ever had the misfortune of being in, public or parochial.

That store had banana flips, of which I partook of one per day of such travel.

But it was still a four block walk, eight blocks round trip.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/22/2012 2:56:55 PM >

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/24/2012 4:02:44 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Tell that to the 14,000 workers who agreed to accept the CBA


Why do you approve of management being paid seven figures while asking labor to take a wage cut in a company that is going bankrupt?


Because they're working with millions and or billions, the employees are working with hundreds.

That isn't to say that they (the employees) can't see around corners, look beyond 18 months....only that they refuse to.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 people their jobs - 11/24/2012 4:06:57 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324352004578130912150512612.html?KEYWORDS=hostess

Read it.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/24/2012 5:10:10 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


Because they're working with millions and or billions, the employees are working with hundreds.

That isn't to say that they (the employees) can't see around corners, look beyond 18 months....only that they refuse to.

So if management fucks up royally and runs the company back into bankruptcy, do they then deserve an 80% raise or do they deserve to be tossed out the door like anyone else who fucks up by the numbers?

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 11/24/2012 5:11:44 PM >

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/24/2012 5:46:37 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		They got their raise and thanks to the Bakers, everyone lost their job.

No matter how well they were run or not run, the company was producing goods and the employees had their jobs.

Then the Bakers struck. And nobody has jobs.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/24/2012 9:02:51 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Just a bit simplistic,eh FDD ?
Must be nice to see the world in such a monochromatic view ,though "nice" might not be the word I'm looking for....lol

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/24/2012 9:12:56 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		it's not simplistic at all... The Company was in bankruptcy and The Bakers rejected the negotiated CBA , one that The Teamsters accepted. Then, under federal bankruptcy rules, the presiding judge installed the CBA on the entire workforce... the company was still running, and several days later, the Baker's union struck. Now everybody is out of work, The Teamsters, the non union workers and the bakers... next stop, food stamps.


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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 12:59:28 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

it's not simplistic at all... The Company was in bankruptcy and The Bakers rejected the negotiated CBA , one that The Teamsters accepted. Then, under federal bankruptcy rules, the presiding judge installed the CBA on the entire workforce... the company was still running, and several days later, the Baker's union struck. Now everybody is out of work, The Teamsters, the non union workers and the bakers... next stop, food stamps.




Ocam's Razor.

The most complicated answer is rarely the correct one.

Hostess told their staff "we aren't making money, largely because we aren't allowed via union rules to ship some of our products on the same truck that go to the same store, so 2 trucks (or more) are required for a task requiring one".

When it costs more than $1.00 to sell $1.00 worth of stuff, costs have to be removed somewhere. Since the Teamsters were unwilling to bend, the money had to come from somewhere.

If you took all of the pay, bonuses, cars, flights, seminars and related out of every executives remuneration, it wouldn't have made enough of a dent in the cost structure to resolve the problem and now not only are the bakers and other help out of work, within the next few months so will 98+% of the executive staff be as well.

Blame the "fat cats" all you want but they're looking for jobs as well.


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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 5:06:39 AM   
erieangel


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quote:

Blame the "fat cats" all you want but they're looking for jobs as well.


As well they should be. The executives are the ones who drove Hostess into bankruptcy, not the bakers or the drivers or anybody else who simply wanted enough to live on for their work.

How does a multi-million dollar salary help the economy anyway?

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 5:10:28 AM   
ElChupa


Posts: 117
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		You people don't understand. This is all about SHUTTING DOWN BIG BUSINESS BROTHERS AND SISTERS. So what that people lose their jobs? Obama will give them a free phone and some stuff, man. It's cool. The big thing is to make sure the union bosses are well paid and have dictatorial powers. ANd that the company goes belly up baby. That's how we roll in america today. y'all better get used to it. Strike shut em down. Make em pay. Oh yes, people will lose jobs, but who cares?

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 5:46:43 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm starting to hear arguments like this all over the place and they don't make any sense. You hear people saying the same thing about raising tax rates on the wealthy: "Hey, that's not going to be enough to balance the budget, so why do it at all?" It's a bit like saying that you can't create a perfectly antiseptic environment, so you may as well conduct surgery in a sewer. Shared sacrifice doesn't mean that the executives get 80% raises while the workers have to go down from $45K a year to $35K.

You said that the executives are looking for jobs now too. So sorry for their pain! The CEO's $2.24 million salary is enough to live on FOR LIFE. He's going to be just fine.

This article says it all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

If you took all of the pay, bonuses, cars, flights, seminars and related out of every executives remuneration, it wouldn't have made enough of a dent in the cost structure to resolve the problem and now not only are the bakers and other help out of work, within the next few months so will 98+% of the executive staff be as well.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 6:09:24 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
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Status: offline 		I get the same problem trying to understand when big business goes down the pan over here too.

Who the fuck can honestly justify more than half-a-million a year??
As a direct comparison, that makes the boss on 10x the salary (or more) of his workers.
Anything more than that is just obcene.
And by the time those bosses bury more than 80% of their salary in "expenses" or other tax-dodging stuff, a lot of them pay a shit-load less tax than their workers.
Workers often have to pay for their medical insurance and pensions, their cars, meals out etc. Most of the fat cats don't pay a red cent - it's a "perk" of their postion. What they actually get paid is pure beer money, almost all the rest is buried in "expenses". Us mere mortals don't have that luxury.

Many of those at the top of the tree earn more in one year than many at the bottom will ever see in their lifetime.
That, to me, is just unacceptable and nothing more than sheer greed.

If a company is losing money, everyone should take a pay-cut as a percentage of their total gross income, including shares and dividends. But do tha fat cats ever do that?? Hardly ever.
Until the fat cats are on a level playing field with the rest of us, there will never be equal justice.

So Hostess is going down... Those fats cats have paid themselves more than enough to retire on, the poor workers will now have to struggle.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 6:13:52 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Im all for a fat bonus for executives who are making changes for a business that nets fat profits.

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RE: A few Labor Leader, cost 18,500 their jobs - 11/25/2012 6:32:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im all for a fat bonus for executives who are making changes for a business that nets fat profits.

Whilst I agree with that in principal, what about fat bonuses for the workers that made these profits possible??
We rarely see that, do we!!

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