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The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/17/2012 7:39:04 PM   
Level


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http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20382699

It sometimes feels, at least to many of us here in America, that many of the battles over social issues have long been put to rest in Europe.

As someone who is generally pro-life, the story of the woman dying in Ireland disturbs me, and seeing so many French rally against gay marriage surprises me.
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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 4:40:17 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I wouldnt call this left vs right in the European sense of things though Level. Left Vs right equates more to capitalism and communism ( Think Eastern Bloc )

The debates raging are about conservatism in the Church versus a more liberal attitude generally.

Irish law already permits abortion IF a mothers life is at risk. Someone at the hospital may just end up in a criminal court charged with negligence or even manslaughter.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 4:47:22 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		To add to the above, but as a seperate issue.

There doesnt seem much clamour, on the left or right to do away with social welfare policies in the EU, just how far they go. The old argument of communism vs capitalism is long since dead. The main political battles are with emerging right wing parties, using financial unrest to garner support, usually by blamming it all on immigration. While extreme left wing movements still flourish, very few European countries seem to have any desire to head in that general direction.

I think future battle lines will be drawn either right or left of centre, with either extreme marginalised. I also expect China to became less extreme as it starts to intigrate more with a global economy.

Edited for spelling, or more to the point, a lack of.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 11/18/2012 5:07:37 AM >

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 5:00:26 AM   
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Status: offline 		Good day, Ps... I hope you're right, re: China.

Sending good thoughts to Mr Halappanavar, the man has to be heartbroken.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 5:41:45 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

It sometimes feels, at least to many of us here in America, that many of the battles over social issues have long been put to rest in Europe.




The EU is an interesting experiment. In the near future my expectation is for it to abjectly fail for a few reasons. Two of the most visible are Nationalism and
the social aspects purview within the Monetary Union.

It was a mistake for the EU to ever include Greece, but that is now done. Same could be said for Spain, Portugal and Italy. The Greeks are not Italians and neither are even close to being like Germans who are closest to being like Belgians, French and even British. The EU went a goodly bridge to far.

In essence, the French want to remain French. The Italians do not want to be anything else and for sure the Greeks are Greeks. Even the British are seeing a watering down of their culture, and even their legal system, and my understanding is they don't like it.

Eventually it will be Nationalism which will drive Germany from the EU Monetary Union back to the German Mark. At some point they will not want to continue their support of i.e. Greece, Spain, and eventually Italy. Ireland shall again have the Punt and the French shall enjoy the Franc. My understanding is that there is some kind of a 'row' between Scotland and England.

Question is, can the EU hold together with divergent monetary systems? Highly doubtful. As Politesub said, There doesnt seem much clamour, on the left or right to do away with social welfare policies in the EU, just how far they go.

There is no clamoring in Greece to do away with social welfare policies. On the contrary, there is great clamoring to keep them.






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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 7:08:18 AM   
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Status: offline 		That leads me to another thread idea..

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 9:11:54 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I know I will get bashed by this post but as I’ve said…I am always honest even if not right.

I have had the notion that European and Canadian posters here of the boards were looking down their noses at the social values of Americans in general. Although I pointed out polls over the years that showed many, if not a majority, of Europeans had the same values. I mean in areas like abortion…gay marriage…and capital punishment for examples. I was bashed of course and because I am not of the area I did not argue.

The links provided I’m sure do not represent the majority thinking in Europe but I think they do show we as a people are not so different after all and those looking down their noses should look around the first.

Butch

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 9:45:35 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I know I will get bashed by this post but as I’ve said…I am always honest even if not right.

I have had the notion that European and Canadian posters here of the boards were looking down their noses at the social values of Americans in general. Although I pointed out polls over the years that showed many, if not a majority, of Europeans had the same values. I mean in areas like abortion…gay marriage…and capital punishment for examples. I was bashed of course and because I am not of the area I did not argue.

The links provided I’m sure do not represent the majority thinking in Europe but I think they do show we as a people are not so different after all and those looking down their noses should look around the first.

Butch


Provide an example and I will get back to you.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 10:16:00 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Provide an example and I will get back to you.


You and I have had disagreements Politesub...no need for examples. Pick almost any subject...especially religion...abortion...capital punishment...Afghanistan...Iraq...on and on. There is usually a group divided here in America between liberals, conservatives and independents. But almost all posters from Canada and Europe tend to deride the views of those leaning to the conservative side of issues. And they tend to do it with a look how much better we do it here bent.

Perhaps you don’t see it but I do and I’ll bet many on this side of the pond and south of the border, as you say, see it as well.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 10:25:55 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Provide an example and I will get back to you.


You and I have had disagreements Politesub...no need for examples. Pick almost any subject...especially religion...abortion...capital punishment...Afghanistan...Iraq...on and on. There is usually a group divided here in America between liberals, conservatives and independents. But almost all posters from Canada and Europe tend to deride the views of those leaning to the conservative side of issues. And they tend to do it with a look how much better we do it here bent.

Perhaps you don’t see it but I do and I’ll bet many on this side of the pond and south of the border, as you say, see it as well.

Butch


Well an example would prove your point, which is why I asked for one. Many US Posters hold opposite views to you. Just as many posters hold opposite views to me, especially on UK politics.

Speaking out about the nutjobs in the Church, or some of the views of the right as found in many threads about Obama, doesnt mean we are looking down our noses. More that we are just pointing out ignorance.

What I never see, is those not on the right in the US ever telling others we cant post because we live in the EU, that stupidity just seems to come from the right.



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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 10:54:02 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Of course where and how we are brought up will govern our overall views. It just seems we here in the US have a greater diversity in opinions then a good part of the western world. On almost every issue US posters will differ when almost always European and Canadian views are close to monolithic.

Or at least it seems that way to me.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:00:14 AM   
Thaz


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Status: offline 		Butch>>> To us US opinion looks very simmilar.

There is VERY little different in opinion between Republican and Deomcrat as far as left/right bias goes as both parties are pretty hard right by European standards.

US Democrat 'lefties' have emigrated to the Uk and ended up on the right wing of the Tory party.....


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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:01:24 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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Status: offline 		As long as religion is a strong presence in this world, the "social" issues, as you frame them have not been resolved anywhere.

What I think Europe has done better than the U.S. is that many (not all) countries there are founded on principles of a social democracy that allows for democracy, free markets and also a strong social safety network. This is not the same thing as saying that Europeans are somehow more progressive socially than Americans (that would imply confusion over what social democracy means).

Many countries in Europe are Catholic with all of the social baggage that that implies.

My personal feeling as an American who has lived and worked in many places in this world is that many Europeans are much more racist than the average American. I speak from first hand knowledge.

I don't hold Europe out as any example of how a heterogeneous group of people can learn to live together. If anything, they are only now confronting issues around religion, ethnicity and race, that America has been dealing with for centuries, because we started out as a much more heterogenous society to begin with.



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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:03:55 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thaz

Butch>>> To us US opinion looks very simmilar.

There is VERY little different in opinion between Republican and Deomcrat as far as left/right bias goes as both parties are pretty hard right by European standards.

US Democrat 'lefties' have emigrated to the Uk and ended up on the right wing of the Tory party.....





Thaz... you need to be around a little longer I could list names but be assured there are many extremes on the liberal and conservative side in the US. In fact we have liberals here that would put to shame any liberal poster from Europe.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:18:41 AM   
SeekProperty2Own


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Status: offline 		That is because arguments about Federalism, Self-Government, and Individual Rights pretty much don't exist outside of the United States. The American left/right divide is rather unique and doesn't make much sense to those for whom its not a part of their national identity.

You might also be surprised by how many on the American Right might actually agree with the European Left on many social values. The American arguments usually wind up being fundamentally about what level and branch of government gets to decide.

I, for example, support gay marriage; but believe that a Supreme Court decision mandating it would be tyrannical.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:28:27 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Individual rights are at the heart of European Law.

Self Government and Federalism are basically at the heart of ongoing disputes between individual EU Member States and the EU itself.

I might be wrong but I often feel Americans view self government as total freedom from government. That idea isnt only not possible but not practical, since humankind has thrived since working collectively, rather than alone.

I see opposition to gay marriage as discrimination, no more and no less.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:33:05 AM   
mussorgsky


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Status: offline 		Sadly, not enough Americans share that view of self-government. If we actually had a government that followed our own Constitution, then that would be the case.

For instance, nowhere in our national Constitution does it say anything on the subject of marriage. Due to our Tenth Amendment (anything not specifically and blatantly given to the Feds is saved for the people and the States), this means that the federal government has absofragginlutely no business dealing with marriage. Of course, the same can be true of so many issues... but our government likes to get involved everywhere it's not needed/wanted/welcomed (and not just on our own turf, as many dead bodies here and abroad can prove)

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:44:48 AM   
SeekProperty2Own


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Individual rights are at the heart of European Law.

Self Government and Federalism are basically at the heart of ongoing disputes between individual EU Member States and the EU itself.

I might be wrong but I often feel Americans view self government as total freedom from government. That idea isnt only not possible but not practical, since humankind has thrived since working collectively, rather than alone.

I see opposition to gay marriage as discrimination, no more and no less.


If Individual Rights are at the heart of European Law then you must never hear the terms "Women's Rights" or "Gay Rights" at all. I seriously doubt that is the case though.

Nor have Europeans even begun their Federalist arguments yet, the EU is nowhere near empowered enough yet for that. But it is a place to start understanding many American political arguments. We fought a very bloody civil war over just those kinds of issues. And as you can see they haven't actually been resolved.

And Self-Government is nothing more and nothing less then who has the right to put a gun to my head and substitute their judgement for my own, and just who it is that they are accountable to.

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 11:50:25 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekProperty2Own


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Individual rights are at the heart of European Law.

Self Government and Federalism are basically at the heart of ongoing disputes between individual EU Member States and the EU itself.

I might be wrong but I often feel Americans view self government as total freedom from government. That idea isnt only not possible but not practical, since humankind has thrived since working collectively, rather than alone.

I see opposition to gay marriage as discrimination, no more and no less.


If Individual Rights are at the heart of European Law then you must never hear the terms "Women's Rights" or "Gay Rights" at all. I seriously doubt that is the case though.

Nor have Europeans even begun their Federalist arguments yet, the EU is nowhere near empowered enough yet for that. But it is a place to start understanding many American political arguments. We fought a very bloody civil war over just those kinds of issues. And as you can see they haven't actually been resolved.

And Self-Government is nothing more and nothing less then who has the right to put a gun to my head and substitute their judgement for my own, and just who it is that they are accountable to.



So you havent read any EU law then ?...... Despite having such laws people still dont abide by them, nor will they overnight or even over a longer period. Education is the only way to change these phobias.... Homophobia, Sexism, Islamophobia, bigotry, none of these are solved by just making laws, they have to be enforced and people need to speak up all the time they are still taking place. The EU of today isnt as bad as it was back in the 80s, let alone the 60s.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 11/18/2012 11:51:04 AM >

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RE: The struggle between the Left and Right in Europe - 11/18/2012 12:05:19 PM   
SeekProperty2Own


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Status: offline 		Just laws reflect culture, it is not the business of the men with guns to seek to change it.

This is known as "The Consent of the Governed."

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