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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 9:08:36 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

You mean a nation without a state?

Yes, that's what I meant, but it did not have the symmetry I was seeking.

quote:

I accept anti-semiticism is an ingrained attitude which is religious and economic in origin, caused through the powers that be in Europe.

I am not clear as to what "ingrained" means to you. The persecution of the Jews in Europe was mostly driven by Christian powers. So, if you mean ingrained in Christian dogma, I agree.

quote:

Fortunately for American ´manifest destiny´many indians died of European introduced deseases and-or were happily slaughtered and starved with no international community to worry about.

I wonder if you are not conflating the history of arrival in the 16th C with the history of expansion in the 18th C. What America had going for it was a great expanse of open land, which Zion lacks. Also, the great buffalo kill and the discovery of gold played a role, I imagine.

quote:

There are no deseases wiping out Palestinians, they cannot be starved or murdered in numbers that can change the situation and there is an international community watching. Sooner or later Israel will be forced into a decision by circumstance, to assimilate the Palestinians into a greater Israel which would mean the end of a Jewish state or acquiesque on the two state solution.

You may be correct of course. Forecasting the future is an uneasy task. However, I would not put too much faith in the international community. They have not been much help to the Kurdish Nation, have they? I can imagine Israel settling for a South African style apartheid contented with their cousins living in Malthusian squalor and continuing to fight off 'militant' attacks for decades longer. I am pretty fatalistic about it as long as she is supported by the US.

Did you give me this link?

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever." Menachem Begin

AND:

"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning . . . Establishing a [small] state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever." -- David Ben-Gurion

I guess all of this is off topic, and I do apologise to Tweakabelle

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 10:17:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Did you give me this link?

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And forever." Menachem Begin



Not guilty. I'm not one for promoting propaganda no matter which side it is on.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 2:40:39 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Was that the fourth or fifth time we had to retake Fallujah?
You seem to forget that the man in charge at My Lai is still in prison.
If he had been South Korean ( they fought there) he would have gotten a commendation, if not a promotion.



A classic knee jerk response which overlooks anything said in the post replied to.

Added that your "facts cough cough" are bullshit. the saddest part is your crassness in suggesting that a man ordering civillians to be herded into a ditch and shot would have got a medal if he had been South Korean.

To sum up..... WTF.

My Lai nwas sop for RoK forces. As you should know.

I remain unconvnced that anyone can top 1/9 at cam ne.
As for the rok perhaps you could give us some examples.

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Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 3:40:15 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The dilemma for Israel is that it has a population time bomb on its hands. The Palestinian population is growing faster than the Jewish population.


This is what people in Europe are worried about, and have been worried about since before Hitler made it a major issue in the 30's and 40's, with the major difference being that Germany was the only country to actually allow such concerns to dictate policy until recently (it's clearly becoming a factor again now, with Jobbik, Golden Dawn and so forth). Israel is a vision of what so-called "cultural conservatives" (i.e. the far right) in Europe are worried about.

In any nation, such a demographic shift is a challenge.

In Norway, for instance, half the population of the capital city will be immigrants with a non-Western point of origin by 2040, according to the Statistics and Census Bureau, and it's noteworthy in this context that most public management is in the capital, along with about one third the population. Oslo centre proper has 54.4% immigrants today, and there are already parts of the city where you better be familiar with Sharia, due to the substantial immigration from Sunni countries. With between 1.3 and 1.9 children per ethnic norse woman, the ethnic norse population is dwindling, whereas the non-Western immigrant population has a rate between 1.9 and 2.3, long term.

Some nations try to find other ways to deal with it than to go berzerk with military might.

Israel might want to give it a shot, too.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 4:28:04 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Australia, which traditionally has slavishly followed US lead on matters relating to Palestine, will abstain from voting.


Norway votes in favor of Palestine, which would, in the view of the Israeli ambassador, mean a breach with the Oslo Accords, though he also agreed the only consequence would be that Israel would keep the tax money they collect in Palestine for themselves without spending any of it in Palestine, which we noted would be simple theft on their part; this didn't seem to trouble them much, not that we expected it to.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 5:18:34 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Australia, which traditionally has slavishly followed US lead on matters relating to Palestine, will abstain from voting.


Norway votes in favor of Palestine, which would, in the view of the Israeli ambassador, mean a breach with the Oslo Accords, though he also agreed the only consequence would be that Israel would keep the tax money they collect in Palestine for themselves without spending any of it in Palestine, which we noted would be simple theft on their part; this didn't seem to trouble them much, not that we expected it to.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Hey, Aswad when one's primary agenda is the theft of an entire nation, what's a few tax $ worth?

So, on the scale of Israeli theft, it hardly rates a mention.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/28/2012 5:19:59 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 5:58:39 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Hey, Aswad when one's primary agenda is the theft of an entire nation, what's a few tax $ worth?

So, on the scale of Israeli theft, it hardly rates a mention.


True enough, but it's worth noting that it didn't start out as theft. The Zionists bought land from its legal owners initially in legal transactions. What the problem comes down to in that regard is that the Palestinians were serfs (fellahin), and the Zionists discarded them once they got the land; whenever you displace the people that have lived on a land for a long time, you get a backlash, whether or not it was legal to do so.

Much as the Holocaust, it comes down to class struggle leading to a backlash against the Jews, and that in turn reverbating down history.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 7:16:24 PM   
SilverMark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

General Sherman once said “This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war.”...Had he not done so, the South may have resisted further and longer than they did. The point being, that war should be horrible, so that we seek ways to end it. Collateral damage and death of civilians bring home the facts that it must end, and brings the parties to the table, if they are civilized enough to do so.
Great post tweak...

Sherman was a fucking moron with little military talent, making war on women and children is always easier than fighting soldiers with guns.
The people of savanah managed to snooker him and nathan bedford forrest scared the living shit out of him. But then forrest scared the living shit out of most of his enemies.



Little harsh on Uncle Billy there Thompson, but the root of the quote remains, as for "fucking idiot" aside from his decision at Kennesaw, his strategy worked well, and hastened the end of the war. Snookered at Savanah?...He came to Savannah,the Confederates fled after flooding the plains, and the city was surrendered by the Mayor...If that is snookering, perhaps your definition varies from the history of the war? Sherman's march continued into South Carolina where he punished the state that was first in succession by burning it's Capital....it seems history would disagree with your self vaunted opinion.


_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

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Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/28/2012 10:17:16 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The dilemma for Israel is that it has a population time bomb on its hands. The Palestinian population is growing faster than the Jewish population.


This is what people in Europe are worried about, and have been worried about since before Hitler made it a major issue in the 30's and 40's, with the major difference being that Germany was the only country to actually allow such concerns to dictate policy until recently (it's clearly becoming a factor again now, with Jobbik, Golden Dawn and so forth). Israel is a vision of what so-called "cultural conservatives" (i.e. the far right) in Europe are worried about.



The growth of the far right in Europe is mainly down to the failure of capitalism rather than immigration. Hitler gained power because of a failure in capitalism and it was the crisis in capitalism which enabled the Nazis to blame the Jews for Germany's ills. If there was no crisis in capitalism, Hitler would not have gained power, the Nazis would have remained ignored. The real danger for Europe today is the malaise in the capitalist establishment where the rich expect a socialised state for themselves (state aid for banks and corporations) which ordinary people are expected to pay for through austerity and higher taxes. Should Greece revolt, it will send shock waves throughout Europe and I suspect the European establishment will react in a way that will exacerbate the situation by thinking more capitalism is the solution, rather than the problem.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/28/2012 10:19:00 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 3:09:17 AM   
SilverMark


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The growth of the far right in Europe is mainly down to the failure of capitalism rather than immigration. Hitler gained power because of a failure in capitalism and it was the crisis in capitalism which enabled the Nazis to blame the Jews for Germany's ills. If there was no crisis in capitalism, Hitler would not have gained power, the Nazis would have remained ignored. The real danger for Europe today is the malaise in the capitalist establishment where the rich expect a socialised state for themselves (state aid for banks and corporations) which ordinary people are expected to pay for through austerity and higher taxes. Should Greece revolt, it will send shock waves throughout Europe and I suspect the European establishment will react in a way that will exacerbate the situation by thinking more capitalism is the solution, rather than the problem.
[/quote]


Meatcleaver, are we to forget the effects of the loss in WWI and the treaty of Versailles?....the destitution of the economy from the treaty, the cost of the war itself?....A bit of revision going on? The German populous was only starving due to the failure of Capitalisim?...REALLY?....A bit too much revision for me....

_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 5:45:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Meatcleaver, are we to forget the effects of the loss in WWI and the treaty of Versailles?....the destitution of the economy from the treaty, the cost of the war itself?....A bit of revision going on? The German populous was only starving due to the failure of Capitalisim?...REALLY?....A bit too much revision for me....


WWI did cause resentment in the German military and German officers were saying as early as 1920 they would get revenge on the French and the french and Belgian occupation of the Ruhr valley in 1923 (?) increased resentment. Milton Keynes had his photo taken at Versailles with a placard with 1940 written on it, his prediction for the year the next war would start. However, with the Weimar republic, which was the most democratic state the west has ever seen, far more liberal and democratic than any western state today including the US, resentment did subside until the collapse of the economy in 1929. You just have to look at the seats the Nazis had in the Reichstag. It rose to ahigh in 1924 with 24 seats and then dropped back to 12 in 1928, in 1930 after the economy collapsed due to the crisis in capitalism, the Nazis gained 107 seats in the Reichstag and with the deepening economic crisis, rose to 196 in 1932 and 288 in 1933 as the economic crisis deepened.

No revision here. While I accept there was resentment, the miltary didn't want war despite mutterins post WWI, the military even tried to persuade Hitler out of war and only began to back Hitler as Austria fell without a fight and the initial victories seemed easy. The rise in the populaity of the Nazis Party shadows the graph in the mounting economic crisis so much so, it would be revisionism to try to claim the economic crisis had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 6:19:55 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Little harsh on Uncle Billy there Thompson, but the root of the quote remains,


Nothing more than a rationalization for his inability to take any tactical advantage in the field. Lidel hart points this out when he compared the stratagy of uncle billy to scipio...the stratagy is to reduce the non combatants to starvaton thus negating any necessity to close with the actual combatants. If we look at the response of the north to similar behavior by mosby and quantrell we see the same sort of acions but different resposes from the critics.

quote:

as for "fucking idiot" aside from his decision at Kennesaw, his strategy worked well, and hastened the end of the war. Snookered at Savanah?...He came to Savannah,the Confederates fled after flooding the plains, and the city was surrendered by the Mayor...If that is snookering, perhaps your definition varies from the history of the war?


After the women and children were allowed to leave atlanta uncle billy burned the city. In contrast the mayor of savanah invited uncle billy and his staff to a catillion with plenty of mint jeulips and hawt babes....savanah did not get torched ...if that aint snookering then I do not know what is.

quote:

Sherman's march continued into South Carolina where he punished the state that was first in succession by burning it's Capital....it seems history would disagree with your self vaunted opinion.


History books are written by the victors.Historians try to decipher hstory from an analysis of history books and exegant records.

(in reply to SilverMark)
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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 6:23:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Give me all your nubile wimminz and I will not set your city to the torch nor rape your grandmothers.

I see that as grand generalship, but I fight a different war nowadays.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 7:22:59 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Give me all your nubile wimminz and I will not set your city to the torch nor rape your grandmothers.

I see that as grand generalship, but I fight a different war nowadays.


Neither thee nor me has shown a preference for grandmothers when contrasted with hard bodies and quality hooch.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/29/2012 7:23:44 AM >

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 7:30:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Can't think of a more noble cause to engage in war over than nubile big titted bitches and whisky at least 12 years old.  Anything else is political and empire building, and in and of itself, the wrong casus belli.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/29/2012 2:59:32 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

it would be revisionism to try to claim the economic crisis had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler.


It would be even worse to try to claim the economic crisis did not originate with the war reparations and war pensions set forth at the Treaty of Versailles, as essentially dictated by the French, and over the protests of leading economists like Keynes. Note that if you transpose their debt to current conditions, it would be like suddenly saddling the USA with a debt of USD 2.5 Trillion overnight, in addition to the actual cost of World War I, which I can assure you wasn't exactly free.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 216
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