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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:17:42 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Interestingly of course I do not believe that HAMAS, as well as several other nations are signatories to the Geneva Conventions, and do not participate in the civilized forms of warfare, that we the enlightend do, we need only solicit our Justice Department for the opinion that 'enhanced interrogation techniques' are not torture, but it is ok even if they are since everybody knows we are going to win, and the cowardly congress has no spine to point out that we should (as befits our constitution and our national interest) make it a matter of law that lese magiste does not overshadow noblisse oblige in our nations common mind. 

I find it interesting that we are signatories to that document but we targeted civilian targets in the sand box. Ie: sewage treatment plants and water treatment and distribution services...but then haliburton is pretty good at building such things.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:24:49 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



Your point seems to be that the "terrorists" are the bad guys. My point was that we used "terrorism" during our revoution. So how do the two differ?

Excuse me, but show me in the TOS where it says I need to give a crap what you wish to ask of me and I will comply


You are free to do as you choose. If you feel unable or unqualified to carry on this discussion please feel free to absent yourself from it at will. There is a block button for those who find my questions too difficult to field.


Oh it couldn't be that I just don't respond to a poster who refuses to stick their own neck out and then needs to resort to insult... as you have above.


Stick my neck out...what the fuck are you talking about?

quote:

Save your one liners for someone isn't already on to this tactic of short sheeting a debate.
  Every try any different methods of debate? Haven't seen it evidenced here on CM.




I point out the inaccuracies and ignorance in your post and you whine like that is some sort of unfair??? If your post did not contain such mind numbingly stupid opinions I would not point them out to you.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:33:04 PM   
FMRFGOPGAL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx



Your point seems to be that the "terrorists" are the bad guys. My point was that we used "terrorism" during our revoution. So how do the two differ?

Excuse me, but show me in the TOS where it says I need to give a crap what you wish to ask of me and I will comply


You are free to do as you choose. If you feel unable or unqualified to carry on this discussion please feel free to absent yourself from it at will. There is a block button for those who find my questions too difficult to field.


Oh it couldn't be that I just don't respond to a poster who refuses to stick their own neck out and then needs to resort to insult... as you have above.


Stick my neck out...what the fuck are you talking about?

quote:

Save your one liners for someone isn't already on to this tactic of short sheeting a debate.
Every try any different methods of debate? Haven't seen it evidenced here on CM.




I point out the inaccuracies and ignorance in your post and you whine like that is some sort of unfair??? If your post did not contain such mind numbingly stupid opinions I would not point them out to you.


You're doing profoundly well when it comes to ignorance. You don't need my help.
You should however review your style of attack, it's predictable and tiring.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:37:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

You're doing profoundly well when it comes to ignorance. You don't need my help.
You should however review your style of attack, it's predictable and tiring.


The only thing I have asked you for is to validate the insipid drivel that fill your posts.

(in reply to FMRFGOPGAL)
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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:40:12 PM   
mnottertail


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The rule of war is I will create a situation in which you will bend to my will.  Nobody gives a fuck how we got there or if it makes sensce or how we get there, it is war.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:45:18 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
The rule of war is I will create a situation in which you will bend to my will.  Nobody gives a fuck how we got there or if it makes sense or how we get there, it is war.

You are mistaken: I care. All conduct ought to be ethical, even war. I do not condone unethical behavior. (I may give absolution for unethical behavior, but I will never condone it.)

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 5:46:59 PM   
mnottertail


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Thats you and you havent fought in beyond a bar pissup.  The Netherlands is not known for its martial prowess, and you can quote me.  The rest of the world considers it differently.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 6:18:49 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Israel does seem to be looking to kill some folk, but they ain't looking to end the war, is what it looks like to me.

And why would they? It's not a big deal to them. Occasionally, a few people get killed, yes. But on the balance, it's an election campaign tool, more than anything else. They've even cut funding to the projects that could lead to a total immunity to rockets from Hamas, some of those projects being shut down entirely. Clearly, it's not a priority to stop those deaths. Mostly, those deaths are a convenient excuse. Terrorism is not a new challenge, nor one that's very difficult to deal with, except when one starts turning it into a circus.

IWYW,
— Aswad.
.

Indeedies. I'll even go a little further.

If the goal is to stop terrorism, then the type of strategy Israel employs currently in Gaza, and against the Palestinians generally is an excellent example of what NOT to do. It's almost guaranteed to fail. Here's why:

In counter terrorist strategy there are two broad options - the military and political strategies. Israel has chosen the military strategy and therefore tries to defeat the 'terrorists' militarily. It refuses to talk to 'terrorists' thereby eliminating the alternative strategy. By its own account, Israel has had a 'terrorist' problem since the 1950s. It still has one today, in fact, its nominated terrorist opponents are stronger than ever, being in Govt in both Gaza and Lebanon. The strategy currently employed in Gaza have been tried on numerous occasions before, most notably Cast Lead. That this strategy is still in use today tells us that this strategy hasn't succeeded. Military strategies rarely work -usually when they do, it is when they are accompanied by wholesale slaughter and/or genocide (eg Russia in Chetchnya). Unless you are up for this level of butchery, military strategies fail when tried in isolation.

Political strategies view terrorism as a security (as in law and order) problem and aim to either isolate the 'terrorists' from their support base (which dooms terrorism to defeat) or reach some kind of political accommodation with the terrorists. This strategy seeks to deal with the issues that cause terrorism through a political process. The British in Ulster, apartheid-era South Africa vs ANC are prime examples of conflicts resolved politically. Afghanistan is another example where military strategy fails and is about to be replaced by a political solution.

So if the goal is defeating terrorism, the political strategy is the only way for any civilised country to go. Israel's failure to adopt a political strategy means that it doesn't see defeating terrorism as a priority. That is because Israel's primary goal is the total conquest of the West Bank. Like Iran, Gaza provides a neat distraction, and a very handy vote winning punch bag come election time.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/21/2012 6:29:09 PM >


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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 10:51:55 PM   
SternSkipper


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What a load of crap... Something like 1000 missiles so far this year lobbed into civilian neighborhoods and the concern is if Israel really has it's heart in stopping terrorism?
Seriously?

Here's a tip... Tell your comrades to stop blowing up in the neighbors's yard for a period of time. Maybe hold an election and put someone besides the latest winners of the Bin Laden think-alike contest in charge, and maybe they'll be taken seriously.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 11:15:32 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

...


Israel does seem to be looking to kill some folk, but they ain't looking to end the war, is what it looks like to me.

And why would they? It's not a big deal to them. Occasionally, a few people get killed, yes. But on the balance, it's an election campaign tool, more than anything else. They've even cut funding to the projects that could lead to a total immunity to rockets from Hamas, some of those projects being shut down entirely. Clearly, it's not a priority to stop those deaths. Mostly, those deaths are a convenient excuse. Terrorism is not a new challenge, nor one that's very difficult to deal with, except when one starts turning it into a circus.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Reminds me of some couples, some spousal relationships I have been acquainted with.

Who wants resolution when both sides have become so expert, and so enamoured, of the 'greatest victim' game.

Not that I would have any personal insight to offer on this sort of thing from developmental, impressionable age exposure to such like, or anything.


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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 11:19:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The British in Ulster, apartheid-era South Africa vs ANC are prime examples of conflicts resolved politically.

Ah yes, South Africa. What a success story.



In further developments, the current president of South Africa, Jacob Zuma, pictured below, is endorsing the Traditional Courts Bill, an enlightened document that mandates resolving problems “the African way, not the white man’s way,” by denying legal representation to 18 million people and putting them under the jurisdiction of tribal chiefs.



Sorry, you were saying?

K.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/21/2012 11:41:04 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

...

In short, who cares?

You'll beed to find someone else if you want to debate why Alfred E. Newman isn't president as well.




He in fact WAS, for eight years, where were you? Did the resemblance of aforesaid to GW, not only in facial qualities but in the "What, me worry?" countenance escape your notice?




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/21/2012 11:44:38 PM >

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 12:54:30 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Ah yes, South Africa. What a success story.

Sorry, you were saying?

K.[/font][/size]



No question, white man's slaughter is much more civilized than non-white man's slaughter, being that at whatever level of slaughter, that being done by the 'civilization' better at convincing the world that they are more civilized, at whatever level of slaughter, is the more civilized slaughter. ( how ELSE do you think the Brits could have possibly gotten away with this for so long?)

Political tautology or wacko ideological tautology aside, De Beers, Chevron, and a host of others would agree with such selective reasoning and 'civilized' rationalization.

Once you've (e.g. Chevron) hired the local government to send helicopter gunships into civilian neighborhoods, you can just say, 'the savages did it, we only hired them to talk sense into people who somehow had the umbrage object to our destruction of their only means of survival.' And, 'even though they were in Western manufactured gunships and had large stores of Russian and British ans German and US armaments of every sort and had implemented them on numerous occasions, we had NO idea they were actually going to shoot anybody, honest.'


If the world could just find a way to deal with that ever-present 'uppity negro' syndrome, we would be so much better off.


PS


Those pics you adduce as 'evidence' merely provide further testimony to (more than I had ever imagined) your sick, sick mind.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/22/2012 1:34:42 AM >

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 1:25:47 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Something like 1000 missiles so far this year ........


This vague number suggests you are unaware of the actual numbers. Here, according to The Economist magazine, are some of the relevant numbers:


Number of Israelis killed by fire from Gaza between January 1st 2012 and November 11th 2012: 1
(Source: Wikipedia)

Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire during the same period: 78
(Source: United Nations)

Number of Israelis killed by fire from Gaza, November 13th-19th 2012: 3
(Source: press reports)

Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire, November 13th-19th: 95
(Source: IDF)

Number of those killed in Gaza under 15 years of age: 19
(Source)

Total number of Israelis killed by rocket, mortar or anti-tank fire from Gaza since 2006: 47
(Source: Wikipedia. This is disputed; another source says 26)

Number of Palestinians in Gaza killed by Israeli fire from April 1st 2006 to July 21st 2012: 2,879
(Source: United Nations)
http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2012/11/israel-and-palestinians?fsrc=scn/tw_ec/gaza_abacus

There are a lot more numbers at the link if you are influenced by such things as facts and numbers. Read them and then you will have a factual basis on which to talk about security problems in the ME.

FWIW my view is that both sides have a security issues. Just as Israeli citizens are threatened by Hamas rockets, Palestinian civilians are killed by IDF firepower. As one Gaza resident put it; "They fear our rockets. Their rockets kill us." Bit of a difference there I'm sure you will agree.

But please don't misunderstand, I regard every single rocket launched from Gaza as a war crime for which the guilty parties should receive the severest sentences. I don't see Israeli missiles any differently.

As Palestinians die in numbers that are multiples (95-3, 78-1, 2,879-47) of those on the Israeli side, I'd say that Palestinians' security issues are at least as serious as Israeli ones. Odd then that you don't even mention them.

quote:

the concern is if Israel really has it's heart in stopping terrorism?


If Israel is serious about stopping terrorism, why do they stick to a strategy that has failed to stop terrorism for every year of its 50+ years of application? If they were serious, they would adopt a strategy that works. Someone else here described their current strategy as a "circus" and that's about right.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/22/2012 1:41:48 AM >


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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 1:26:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Laws like this require an otherwise law abiding government.

... and where in the entire world we would find such a thing? Heck, even the governments on the winning side do not abide by any known laws... not their own and not some sort of international law. I have a hard time believing that someone on the losing side would even contemplate "following the rules". Personally I suspect the only way to "clean up" war is to stop having them.


That was my point completely.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 1:52:38 AM   
tweakabelle


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Yanno DS, if we were to refrain from making a law because someone is likely to break it, we would never introduce any laws anywhere for anything. Because laws will always be broken by someone or other. But that has never stopped us introducing them in the past, it doesn't stop us today nor will it ever stop us in the future

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 2:10:15 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yanno DS, if we were to refrain from making a law because someone is likely to break it, we would never introduce any laws anywhere for anything. Because laws will always be broken by someone or other. But that has never stopped us introducing them in the past, it doesn't stop us today nor will it ever stop us in the future


No country that is strong enough to win a large scale war like russia, china, united states will ever let such a law come to apply to them.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 4:50:01 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Indeedies. I'll even go a little further.


And I'll take one step to the side but continue on that vector, using the same example:

There's no such thing as terrorism. What we have are:

1. International unconventional warfare, and
2. Low grade civil war, and
3. Insurgency.

Now, let's attempt to analyze the Israel/Gaza conflict in these terms, one by one.

1. International unconventional warfare

Hardly very unconventional, these tactics have been employed by several nations, with Israel and the USA as two of the most prolific actors on this arena. Gaza could be seen in these terms, but only if we admit the existence of a Palestinian state. And from the Israeli side of the equation, that's a nonstarter, while from the other side of the other side of the equation, Israel has had several campaigns, while Palestine has had a rash of border incidents, not unlike the brief spat between Turkey and Syria just a short while ago, where a few stray hits in Turkey were answered with a few warning shots for Syria, demonstrating a measure of porportionality. When one party abandons porportionality, that is called escalation and leads to a war of some duration, i.e. a campaign, in which the escalating party is, by convention, considered the belligerent.

So, yes, if we recognize Palestine as a nation, we can deem Hamas a legitimate military and see this as Palestine using "unconventional" warfare in response to a long standing war that Israel started and occasionally renews with military campaigns against Palestine. This, in most cases, can be resolved by obliterating the nation in question. Israel has successfully levelled the governing body in the past and it's made no difference, calling into question the concept of a Palestinian state after the presumed assassination of Arafat, who at least had a certain measure of control. But if we still cling to this analysis, it's possible to progress to genocide as a resolution. Israel has been a bit hesitant to do this, but is presently out of options according to this view.

In this analysis, our current predicament started on Nov 8th of this year, when Israeli forces killed a 13 year old boy, a civilian, during a raid in Gaza. In response to that, Palestine ran a low intensity campaign against Israel, in which there may have been one Israeli casualty in total, so direct porportionality. In response to that, Israel started a de facto war on Palestine, without adherence to ROE, and the casualty figures are so far about a hundred to none.

The simplest solution if this were a correct analysis would be for Israel to stop being the aggressor.

2. Low grade civil war

Domestic disputes do happen, usually over seperatism (ETA, IRA, etc.), ideology (RAF, etc.), poverty (Mexico, Afghanistan, etc.), group struggles (Indian castes, Norwegian Saami, Native Americans, etc.) or history, the latter being the result in all cases in which there has been a long standing dispute of some sort. Once you call in the military, you've departed from treating this as being a domestic issue entirely (hence not listing the US independence as a domestic issue in the UK), and the IDF is a military the last time I checked. To underline that this is an incorrect analysis, despite most of these grounds for conflict existing in Gaza, we need only look to the clear separation between the parties, the homogeniety of the parties and the fact that there is no real due process for people living in the geographic area of Gaza.

This conflict is not domestic; these are not tensions in a single state.

3. Insurgency:

Quite frequently, a colonial power (UK in India and America), an occupying force (Nazi Germany in Norway) or an invader (USA in Afghanistan) will be faced with a certain level of resistance to what the Pashtun so nicely put as "bearing arms on another man's land when unwelcome", and the oppression that tends to go along with maintaining such an unwelcome presence. I suppose it's the nation state equivalent of rape, this use of force to maintain an unwelcome presence where one was not invited, and is not wanted, for one's own reasons.

Insurgency has only one resolution: leave.

The alternative is, as has successfully been employed throughout history, to continue to thoroughly oppress the population and to live with the occasional bouts of violence that inevitably follow an ongoing unwelcome presence. In short, as applied to the Gaza situation, for Israel to live with the attirition and expend the necessary resources to keep the Palestinian population oppressed, without driving them into that "rock and a hard place, back to the wall" spot where people eventually find the spine to cast off their shackles and either have nothing to lose or are willing to lose it; since it takes quite a fair bit of prodding to get someone to that point, this is easy to avoid.

History tells us nothing is as easy as oppressing human beings, particularly women, children and the elderly, three groups that together make up the vast majority of the Palestinian population. Yet the Israeli seem to, if we accept this analysis, have crossed the magic line where continued occupation is a dead proposition. Lo and behold, they are realizing this. They can eke out a few more years by upping the level of oppression dramatically and "mowing the lawn" more frequently and more brutally, but when you've beated the hold you've got out of a population, you're done. That situation can only be resolved by leaving or clearing the land of life and colonizing it. The Israeli government seems to be pondering which of those two options to go for, and whether there's an exit strategy that won't cost them the election.

I'm kind of inclined to go with this view, of the "evil empire" and the "rebel insurgents".

Why, one might ask, and the answer, for me, is simple enough:

This is the view Israel is acting according to.

Actually, I omitted one other option, that Israel has bungled in the past, which is the classic Roman solution that Gaius Marius instated: to take the territory by force of arms on the ground, settle the conquered lands with a heavy military presence that makes the officers quite invested as a sort of warlord in their own right, seize a significant portion of their women, and start normalizing things so that they'll one day be proper Roman citizens, without bitching about any frustrations they might take out on you. Presumably, while subjected to that treatment, the Jewish population never observed very closely, or simply failed to pass on the tip to their descendants. Or maybe they don't have the stomach for it. I doubt that, with 90% of this subpopulation being in favor of genocide (ironic for a group that's been through one). Rather, they don't really want Palestine. They want to kill Palestinians, or step on them, either will do, or else have them off their hands, being disinterested in having anything else to do with them. With USD 900 per capita annual GDP and 46% of the population below the poverty line, you'd think the Israeli could find a cheap way to exploit these people, and we'd all be better off for it, including the Palestinians.

Conclusion:

Terrorism is nothing but a buzzword to refuse to deal with reality, instead going for an absurd DC Comics simplification of the world into black and white with everything causally disconnected and nothing to be done about anything but to wait for some hero to come render enough violence unto the bad guys (them) to save the good guys (us). Well, that's pretty much how simple it must seem to people in Gaza, too, given their level of education and their age. But people in Israel don't have that excuse, and unlike comics, reality has this nasty property that a violent resolution isn't Superman hauling your ass off to jail, but rather women and children screaming in terror, the real deal, not the buzzword.

A student blogger in Tel Aviv neatly put it, yesterday, that when a traffic jam might be a bomb, you know you're in Israel.

A journalist similarly put it, that when you wake up under your desk just in time for the second blast to fill the room with glass and knock the wind out of you, when the next three blasts are within seconds and people run across the broken glass to dive for cover under your desk, when people have nowhere to run or hide and just resume their fearful lives once the bombs are gone because they've been that close many times before, well...

... then you know you're not in Israel anymore.

Then you know you're in Gaza.

They get terror.

Really.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 4:53:17 AM   
Edwynn


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OTOH, if you are in such position that you are not Russia, China, US, etc. (or even Israel), then any action you take in response to their intrusion and aggression is called ...


Oh, what surprise, there.

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RE: Rethinking the rules of war - 11/22/2012 6:03:59 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Yanno DS, if we were to refrain from making a law because someone is likely to break it, we would never introduce any laws anywhere for anything. Because laws will always be broken by someone or other. But that has never stopped us introducing them in the past, it doesn't stop us today nor will it ever stop us in the future


So, you're taking the Burger King approach (ie. Rules are meant to be broken)?

It's not that there is always someone that is going to break it that I'm most concerned with. I'm much more concerned that it's going to increase the odds of it being broken. While that's not a big deal in some cases, when the law is to prevent civilian casualties, enacting a law that increases the odds of that happening need to really, really be pored over.

Currently, there are several things illegal regarding civilians during warfare. That is a damn good thing, too. But, there is a limit to how much protection we can legislate and think is actually going to make things better.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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